New York Times on the Sovereign Citizen Movement

[AndyK]

Too many bullies here. Laughed and almost coughed up a lung when the Jews were brought up. We all know what THEY'RE like, right? I'm outta here.

Is it impolitic to suggest that we do something to help him? I'm old, cranky, have no patience with trolls and have my finger on the ban / moderate button.

[wserra]

Please don't. It's far more effective to let people prove themselves idiots than to forcibly silence them.

[AndyK]

Which is why I asked.

Attributed to Lincoln and appropriate to most of the resident trolls “Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

[AnOwlCalledSage]

Attributed to Lincoln

Since we pride ourselves on fact based discussions that form of words is most likely to be from “Mrs. Goose, Her Book” by Maurice Switzer 1906. First "attribution" to Lincoln wasn't until 1931.

And almost certainly a reworking of:

"Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue." Proverbs 17:28

[notorial dissent]

Attributed to Lincoln

Since we pride ourselves on fact based discussions that form of words is most likely to be from “Mrs. Goose, Her Book” by Maurice Switzer 1906. First "attribution" to Lincoln wasn't until 1931.

And almost certainly a reworking of:

"Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue." Proverbs 17:28

Yeah, that.

[Pottapaug1938]

I assume our British readers are totally befuddled by now.

Not this one. Although I'd have to re-read the history of the battle to remind me (it was a long time ago I learned of these things).
What I would say is I have to be careful when talking to Americans of which state they are from and not to mention that I come from a cotton processing part of England.

My Lancashire ancestors' livelihoods depended, in part, on imports of Southern cotton. The advent of cotton imports from India helped to relieve this distress. I wonder if memories of that distress helped them decide to move across The Pond.

[Pottapaug1938]

Please don't. It's far more effective to let people prove themselves idiots than to forcibly silence them.

I'm new to the Moderator ranks; but I agree with Wes. Let the trolls embarrass themselves; and save moderation and banning on for the worst violations of the rule and decorum of this site.

[notorial dissent]

Yes, fools tend to make fools of themselves without help or assist, and it is generally best to just let them do so. Ignoring them irritates them more than they usually irritate others.

[grixit]

I assume our British readers are totally befuddled by now.

Not this one. Although I'd have to re-read the history of the battle to remind me (it was a long time ago I learned of these things).
What I would say is I have to be careful when talking to Americans of which state they are from and not to mention that I come from a cotton processing part of England.

A coalition of citizens in a cotton processing area of England sent a letter to Lincoln saying that even though the blockade was hurting them grievously (some called it the Cotton Famine), they would bear for the sake of eliminating slavery. His reply thanking them was so gracious, that they later put up a statue of him.

[ArthurWankspittle]

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk ... am-8802722

[noblepa]

If you've never been, its a magnificent scene, still largely the same as it was in 1863. But I dare anyone to explain to me, sitting under Bobby's statue, how anyone with half a brain could look up from that point, at 52,000 troops and 370 cannon, amd think "Yeah, we can take that ridge".

Jeb Stuart might have gotten him into Gettysburg, but after 2 days its not like he couldn't have known was on the other side of that field.

I've toured the Gettysburg battlefield a couple of times, using the audio guided tour that they sold on CD.

With all the statues and monuments, showing where each group was, and looking out over that battlefield and realizing what happened there, I still find it an incredibly moving experience. I don't think that it is an exaggeration or hyperbole to say that the battle of Gettysburg saved the US. Had the Confederates won that battle, the nation might have remained divided.

It is one place that every American should visit at least once in their lives.

[Gregg]

When I go there with friends, I always to them to the 20th Maine Monument and point out that this is one of a rare few places where you can point and say "On that spot, on that day, a man saved the United States.

Then I make sure to tell them that, in reality, it was over there a bit. The big block of rock they set there was placed several years after the battle and the year it was dedicated they invited Joshua Lawrence Chamberlin to speak. They took him up, obviously very proud and asked him what he thought. His reply, "Wrong spot, it was over there, about 20 feet."

[eric]

Been there, done that. Guided enough young soldiers over ground in France, pointed out exactly where the "experts" were wrong as to the unit's jumping off point down to the exact foot and tried to teach them some basic tactics and awareness of staff work. Example - an enduring myth about the battle of Vimy Ridge is that one Canadian unit had heavy casualties because they left their trenches "here" and the artillery fire plan was changed 12 hours before the fact to miss the ground in front of them. Sorry, it's still obvious 100 years later exactly where the rounds hit (50 feet off), and I questioned the administrative likelihood of changing a pile of paper 25 feet long in 12 hours. I was a little off in my guesstimate - the artillery fire plan for Vimy Ridge takes up 30 plus feet in the National Archives and their is no indication of last minute changes. Simple answer - someone screwed up in the math calculating exactly how to set their guns to fire based on the data generated by a "master gun" which hit that target a week or more before which was the technique used in the field well into the 1950's.

[Judge Roy Bean]

We're getting somewhat far afield from the topic but let me just say that one cannot dismiss the reality of "the fog of war" when trying to recreate depictions of battle sites and events.