Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

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svezg
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by svezg »

I hesitate to respond because I don't know Canadian law, and because I fear feeding a troll, but there seems to be (at least) one error in logic in Psam's logic:
the consistent view of the Supreme Court of Canada is that rights shall be defined broadly and liberally (Sauve v Canada para 11)
I don't doubt this true so I didn't bother checking the source, but it seems to me that there is a difference between defining rights as broadly as theoretically possible, versus defining rights as broadly as realistically possible.

Take, for instance, Charter item 2(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression. The broadest possible definition of that would say that a law prohibiting the distribution of child porn is unlawful because it abrogates freedom of expression. Indeed, such a law DOES abrogate freedom of expression, but it's pretty obvious that distribution of child porn should be illegal, so obviously the Charter can't possibly mean that the rights outlined in it are without limit. Therefore, while the rights "shall be defined broadly and liberally", nevertheless it is plain that it is not enough to blindly consider the "most broad and liberal application" without considering anything else.

Therefore, when Psam says "it is more broad and liberal to say that...", that statement might be true in and of itself, but it is a non sequitur because that's not the ONLY consideration when it comes to constitutional interpretation.

So when Psam says "Do you refute any of these claims?" he has suggested that if each of his individual claims are true that his conclusion must also be true. But that's not correct, because there is at least one error of logic here, even without considering whether any of the statements of fact are true.
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by noblepa »

svezg wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:31 am I hesitate to respond because I don't know Canadian law, and because I fear feeding a troll, but there seems to be (at least) one error in logic in Psam's logic:
the consistent view of the Supreme Court of Canada is that rights shall be defined broadly and liberally (Sauve v Canada para 11)
I don't doubt this true so I didn't bother checking the source, but it seems to me that there is a difference between defining rights as broadly as theoretically possible, versus defining rights as broadly as realistically possible.

Take, for instance, Charter item 2(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression. The broadest possible definition of that would say that a law prohibiting the distribution of child porn is unlawful because it abrogates freedom of expression. Indeed, such a law DOES abrogate freedom of expression, but it's pretty obvious that distribution of child porn should be illegal, so obviously the Charter can't possibly mean that the rights outlined in it are without limit. Therefore, while the rights "shall be defined broadly and liberally", nevertheless it is plain that it is not enough to blindly consider the "most broad and liberal application" without considering anything else.

Therefore, when Psam says "it is more broad and liberal to say that...", that statement might be true in and of itself, but it is a non sequitur because that's not the ONLY consideration when it comes to constitutional interpretation.

So when Psam says "Do you refute any of these claims?" he has suggested that if each of his individual claims are true that his conclusion must also be true. But that's not correct, because there is at least one error of logic here, even without considering whether any of the statements of fact are true.
While not a Canadian jurist, Oliver Wendell Holmes, one of the greatest US Supreme Court Justices, once said in a ruling that the first amendment's guarantee of freedom of speech does not allow one to yell "FIRE" in a crowded theater. The point being that rights are seldom absolute. They are tempered by reality.

IANAL, let alone a Canadian one, but I strongly suspect that the Canadian courts would agree with Mr. Justice Holmes.
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

There is an old saying that "general principles do not decide concrete cases":

https://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/cgi ... l_articles

In other words, Psammy has fallen into the not unusual trap of finding general statements, such as he cites, and extrapolating from that a claimed right for his interactive voting scheme.
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by notorial dissent »

Pottapaug1938 wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:29 pm There is an old saying that "general principles do not decide concrete cases":

https://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/cgi ... l_articles

In other words, Psammy has fallen into the not unusual trap of finding general statements, such as he cites, and extrapolating from that a claimed right for his interactive voting scheme.
That rather precisely and more importantly CONCISELY sums it up, or maybe better yet, Psamy's reality isn't anyone else's reality.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by Burnaby49 »

I'm really sorry to have to do this svezg, you being a very new contributor to Quatloos with only, to date, three posts, two of which flattered me (a very scarce, prized commodity around here). But, as the sole Canadian Quatloos moderator I'm tasked with the responsibility of stopping wild reckless postings on Canadian topics such as your most recent. You wrote;
I hesitate to respond because I don't know Canadian law, and because I fear feeding a troll, but there seems to be (at least) one error in logic in Psam's logic:
the consistent view of the Supreme Court of Canada is that rights shall be defined broadly and liberally (Sauve v Canada para 11)
I don't doubt this true so I didn't bother checking the source, but it seems to me that there is a difference between defining rights as broadly as theoretically possible, versus defining rights as broadly as realistically possible.
Have you been paying any attention to what Psam had been saying? A difference between broadly defined rights as theoretically possible and as realistically possible? Realism? Where has realism ever entered into Psam's dream world? It isn't a concept he acknowledges, he may not even uderstand the word. It's Psalm's belief (and I readily concede that it appears to be an entirely honest, sincerely held belief) that the entire framework of the government of Canada, in fact the very basis of the legitimacy of an entity identifying itself as the government of Canada, exists solely to fulfill Psam's demands of what he claims are his constitutional rights. These rights are absolute regardless of how extreme his interpretations are, no matter how unhinged they may be from what the rest of us consider to be reality. Psalm doesn't believe in defining "realistic" limits.

He interprets Part 1, Section 3 of the Constitution:
Democratic Rights

3. Every citizen of Canada has the right to vote in an election of members of the House of Commons or of a legislative assembly and to be qualified for membership therein.
To mean that we Canadians have the right to vote whenever we want for whomever we want. No limits. Want to vote ten times tomorrow? A hundred? A thousand? As far as Psam is concerned the constitution demands that you be allowed to. if you can't then any claim of Canada being a democracy is just a cruel sham. Psam, Quatloos's constitutional expert, doesn't recognize artificial limits like legislated election dates or "realistically possible". Either we have voting rights or we don't. We have either a democracy or a dictatorship, there's no middle ground. If we can only vote every four years or so we have a dictatorship and may as well be in North Korea!

So your statement
Therefore, when Psam says "it is more broad and liberal to say that...", that statement might be true in and of itself, but it is a non sequitur because that's not the ONLY consideration when it comes to constitutional interpretation.
Is right in one context but wrong in another. It's correct in the context of the courts and the legislature where, as you point out, the limit of constitutional rights must be balanced against other equally compelling and competing issues. But it's wrong in the context of Psam's fantasy world where there are no competing issues. If he says something is his constitutional right, no matter how demented or regardless of what any objective observer might think, that's it, end of the analysis.

But he's not just some ranting nutcase, he had a constructive solution to the gross violation of his rights. Psam, sacrificing himself for Canada, struggled for years to construct a voting system that allowed perpetual endless 24/7 voting. He finally came up with something, I read it once. It seemed completely idiotic and unworkable to me but I must be wrong because Psam said it was entirely practical. But when Canada denied him total control over the entire national voting system by refusing to adapt his system he decided that Canada owed him redress. Since he was apparently no better than a slave in a total dictatorship he concluded that he should be exempt from being a Canadian while still enjoying all of the advantages of living here. His solution? Canada, to compensate him for violating his rights, was required to exempt him from all of its laws. Seems only fair. He wanted the Attorney General of British Columbia to sign a proclamation formalizing this by saying that provincial authorities would not enforce any laws against him. When this was refused he went to the Supreme court of British Columbia to get a court order ordering the government to issue the statement.

As his Facebook postings show his court loss has deeply embittered him. Yet it must also have pointed out to him how insignificant and powerless he really is. This might be why he's afraid to return to court (almost five years and counting). Overall Psam's attitude reminds me of babysitting my three year old grandson yesterday. He spotted a Kinder Egg (banned in the United States!) in the fridge and wanted it. When I told him no he had a tantrum for a few minutes but somehow life went on as if his tantrum counted for nothing. At least my grandson doesn't post raving grossly obscene Facebook entries when life doesn't accede to his every demand.
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by svezg »

Burnaby49 wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:04 pm I'm really sorry to have to do this svezg, you being a very new contributor to Quatloos with only, to date, three posts, two of which flattered me (a very scarce, prized commodity around here). But, as the sole Canadian Quatloos moderator I'm tasked with the responsibility of stopping wild reckless postings on Canadian topics such as your most recent.
Sorry for being dense but I don’t understand what you’re apologising to me for. You went on to evicerate Psam, which is fine by me, so I’m not sure what you are “doing to me”?

Are you asking me not to respond to Psam’s logic because he lives in a fantasy world? If so no problemo, it’s no skin off my back I’m happy to just lurk :-)
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by notorial dissent »

Burnaby49 wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:04 pm
the consistent view of the Supreme Court of Canada is that rights shall be defined broadly and liberally (Sauve v Canada para 11)
Democratic Rights

3. Every citizen of Canada has the right to vote in an election of members of the House of Commons or of a legislative assembly and to be qualified for membership therein.
Thank you for that bit of elucidation and the evidence of Psammy's lack of reading comprehension.

Please not the highlighted above. I don't see any expansion in that article anymore than I see contraction in "includes".
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by Burnaby49 »

I was trying, and obviously failed, at an attempt at humour, not aimed at you but Psam by chastising you for trying to bring logic and reality into a situation in which neither has the slightest relevance, at least to Psam. If you go back to the beginning of this discussion, over four years ago, you'll see how I, and other Quatloos posters, constantly used both to point out to Psam how completely hopeless his lunatic quest was, how it made no sense whatever in either law or logic. But for all the effect we've had on Psam we might as well, as I said in a different context in another discussion, have been talking to the raccoons in my back yard.

The guy has thrown his adult life away (he's in his mid 40's) on his obsession about his voting rights and his overwhelming hatred of our political system and the politicians running it. Those Facebook postings I quoted were from over four years ago. Has his thinking matured and evolved since then? I'll share his latest words of wisdom;
If Justin Turdeau, Andrew Schitter, and Jagmeet Singh were put in a blender together and mulched up until smooth, would you feed it to your dog?
Anybody who has anything kind, supportive, or respectful to say about Justin Trudeau, Donald Trump, or Xi Jinping deserves to die of cancer
Fuck you Canada. Fuck you all.
About the only difference from four years ago is that he's expanded to the international arena.
Imagine if Donald Trump were to choke to death on a Tic Tac while giving a speech on July 4 in front of an American tank . . . . that guy is such a lying worthless piece of shit
The political analysis of a ten year old.

You'll note that this discussion has 22 pages. The vast bulk of that was Quatloos posters arguing, debating, however you wish to frame it, with Psam. However that's exactly what he wants, that he desperately needs, a platform with real people responding to him thoughtfully, validating that his ideas are worth serious discussion. They're not. So whenever he makes one of his infrequent visits here I don't bother debating anymore, I just dump on him, pointing out how he's locked in a frantic loop chasing his own tail with nothing new to justify the last four years of his obsession or any reason to come back and argue here yet again.

But others might succeed where I've failed. I'm not the most tactful of debaters. Feel free to try your luck with Psam if I haven't already driven him away again. If so, just be patient, he'll be back. He has nowhere else to go except for his much promised, much delayed return to court. But he's too terrified of losing there again to try that so it leaves us as the lucky beneficiaries of his wisdom.
"Yes Burnaby49, I do in fact believe all process servers are peace officers. I've good reason to believe so." Robert Menard in his May 28, 2015 video "Process Servers".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeI-J2PhdGs
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by svezg »

Burnaby49 wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:03 pm I was trying, and obviously failed, at an attempt at humour
It’s all good, now I’ve reread your reply with this in mind it all makes a bit more sense.

The internet can be a pretty hostile place, and the first couple of lines of your reply put me in a mindset where I thought I was about to get roasted, and that coloured my perception.

Thanks for the clarification :-)
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by LordEd »

Oh dear... Is psam the voting scam going to draw me back from retirement to read this stuff again? I had started to make more productive use of my time... Like mindless infinite upgrade click games.
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by Burnaby49 »

Don't worry about being distracted from your retirement passion. I seem to have scared Psam off with my queries about what he's done with the last for years apart from endless Face Book postings.
"Yes Burnaby49, I do in fact believe all process servers are peace officers. I've good reason to believe so." Robert Menard in his May 28, 2015 video "Process Servers".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeI-J2PhdGs
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by LordEd »

Burnaby49 wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:04 pm To mean that we Canadians have the right to vote whenever we want for whomever we want. No limits. Want to vote ten times tomorrow? A hundred? A thousand? As far as Psam is concerned the constitution demands that you be allowed to.
And under the same argument, I insist that Psam seek out and subject himself to punishment that is not cruel or unusual at all times. Several times per day. :beatinghorse:

Back to retirement from freemanism. Such a wonderful world where people do just regular idiotic things.
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by Burnaby49 »

If you're pissing away your time on "mindless infinite upgrade click games" I'd say your miles ahead of Psam. At least you have some self-awarness and realize that it's time squandered. Psam still seems to think that he's totally wasted the past decade or two on a vital project of national importance. He actually still seems to think, or at least he's deluded himself into thinking, that he can win at court if he just does things by a magic formula he's still trying to discover. You probably walk away from the computer having had at least some trivial amount of enjoyment. Psam's endless computer ravings seems instead to fill him with rage and resentment against a world that inexplicably totally ignores him.

Another guy who seemed to be frustrated at pointlessly wasting his time was the Crown's lawyer at Psam's hearing four years ago. He didn't share Psam's inflated belief at what was at stake and just wanted to get Psam's idiotic hearing done with so he could go back to real work.
"Yes Burnaby49, I do in fact believe all process servers are peace officers. I've good reason to believe so." Robert Menard in his May 28, 2015 video "Process Servers".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeI-J2PhdGs
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by LordEd »

I've resisted unleashing my knowledge of freemannery upon my strata council and the bc tribunal over small things... But if one day I go completely mad, you'll probably hunt me as furiously as the others.
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by Burnaby49 »

What others? The freeman movement almost totally collapsed after Clifford was jailed and Menard was discredited. There was a brief resurgence when the Poriskyites went to trial but it was a false dawn. As pathetic as Psam is he's about all that's left to report on.
"Yes Burnaby49, I do in fact believe all process servers are peace officers. I've good reason to believe so." Robert Menard in his May 28, 2015 video "Process Servers".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeI-J2PhdGs
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by notorial dissent »

Burnaby49 wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:54 pm What others? The freeman movement almost totally collapsed after Clifford was jailed and Menard was discredited. There was a brief resurgence when the Poriskyites went to trial but it was a false dawn. As pathetic as Psam is he's about all that's left to report on.
And isn't that a sad sad commentary in and of itself.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by Chaos »

Burnaby49 wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:54 pm What others? The freeman movement almost totally collapsed after Clifford was jailed and Menard was discredited.
LIES!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by LordEd »

Yes lies. You can't be discredited if you had no credit to start with.
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by notorial dissent »

LordEd wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:21 pm Yes lies. You can't be discredited if you had no credit to start with.
You do have a valid point there. :snicker:
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.
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Re: Psam Frank - Sovereign with his own laws and court

Post by Psam »

Enfranchisement breeds social responsibility

“[L]aws command obedience because they are made by those whose conduct they govern.”
Supreme Court of Canada, Sauvé v Canada para 44: https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-c ... 0/index.do