Benson Enjoined, But No Customer Lists?

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SteveSy

Post by SteveSy »

Quixote wrote:
First off it's not a fraudulent tax scheme. The government refuses to prove whether his information is invalid or not. It's typical of the government to just force the issue when it knows it can't win legitimately.
Benson's information was shown to be invalid in his earlier trial.
No it wasn't. The government refused to deal with the issue in court and the court prevented it from being heard.

The government nor the court ever claimed his documents were fraudulent they simply said it wasn't something they had to disprove because they said it doesn't matter if they're valid or not.
The court and the government are now just saying his documents are fraudulent but has yet to prove or provide anything to support that assertion.
Last edited by SteveSy on Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Famspear
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Post by Famspear »

SteveSy wrote:
First off it's not a fraudulent tax scheme. The government refuses to prove whether his information is invalid or not.
First off, the government specifically argued in open court that Benson's information is invalid -- and the court has ruled that Benson's information is invalid. And the government has not "refused" to prove Benson's scheme is fraudulent. Benson rehashed his arguments in this particular case. The government argued that Benson's scheme is fraudulent, and the court ruled that the scheme is fraudulent. I posted the quotes from the decision already. Remember, Steve, we're talking here about the real law, not the fake "SteveSy law" that you have previously said you decide for yourself.

The courts have ruled Benson's non-ratification argument to be without merit - over and over for the past twenty years or so. Benson's own arguments could not keep him out of jail years ago. Despite this, Benson himself again raised his arguments again in this very case in this year of 2007.

Benson's hair-splitting over whether he has been allowed to "prove" his case -- which you and other tax protester types have gullibly parrotted -- betrays a misunderstanding of (or, more likely, a refusal to accept) the central reality of the whole "non-ratification" argument, which is: Whether the Sixteenth Amendment is a valid part of the Constitution is not a question of "fact" that can be "proven" or "disproven" in precisely the same way that one might "prove" or "disprove," for example, that a party to a contract signed a document or that an operator of a waste facility dumped chemical waste on a particular date. Whether the Amendment is a valid part of the Constitution is a question of law, not a question of fact.

This means that at this point in the history of the republic, the only material inquiry on this point: What have the courts already ruled? Not "what does Benson say", and not "what do the original source documents say". Philander Knox (the Secretary of State in 1913) looked at the source documents many years ago. Bill Benson supposedly looked at source documents in the mid-1980s, and made his arguments in open court. And the courts have repeatedly considered Benson's arguments. Benson and others like him litigated and re-litigated the issue. The courts ruled in every single case that the Sixteenth Amendment is a valid amendment to the United States Constitution.

In law, we have concepts called res judicata and collateral estoppel. This means that for Benson to continue to re-litigate this issue as he undeniably did, and to try to sell materials that claim that the Amendment is not a valid part of the Constitution -- when in reality the courts have already ruled against Benson on that very point -- was fraudulent, according to the court's ruling in this case. In part, it was fraudulent because Benson actually knows that he and many others have already lost this point in court, and yet continues to try to profit from his incorrect argument by selling his nonsense on the internet.

As an aside: This whole non-ratification fraud scheme was created and furthered by Benson and others in part as a result of their erroneous idea that if the Sixteenth Amendment were not part of the Constitution, Federal income taxes on compensation for personal services (whether called salary, wages, commission, or any other name) would somehow be unconstitutional. Unfortunately, a Federal income tax on such compensation has NEVER been unconstitutional, either before or after the Amendment -- a point which continues to sail right over the heads of many tax protesters.

SteveSy wrote:
Second, simply reading documents should never imply guilt or possible guilt.
Phony argument. Nobody is saying that "simply reading documents" implies guilty or possible guilt -- at least not in the sense I think you mean. The false implication here seems to be that merely having bought Benson's package over the internet would be enough evidence to convict someone of something.

And even if "simply reading documents" does imply guilt or possible guilty, that is not a valid objection. In criminal law, there is essentially no such thing as conclusive evidence of guilt as a matter of law. Even eyewitness testimony that Defendant X shot Victim A is not "conclusive evidence" that Defendant X is guilty of murder, or that Defendant X even shot Victim A. To argue that the IRS should not be able to obtain Benson's customer list merely because a government prosecutor, etc., might infer that a customer is guilty merely because that customer "simply read" the materials is specious. Even if every government law enforcement official were to make that dubious inference, that would not necessarily invalidate the legal authority of the IRS to obtain that information as part of its investigation of that person's tax situation.

The issue is (or would be, if the IRS were to choose to take the section 7602 administrative summons route) whether the IRS should be able to legally force Benson to disclose his customer information as part of an investigation of the customers' tax liabilities.

Essentially, it's POSSIBLE that some customers may have used Benson's materials to commit crimes. It's also POSSIBLE that some of Benson's customers may have used Benson's materials to understate or under pay taxes. It's also POSSIBLE that NONE of Benson's customers have broken the tax laws. It's also POSSIBLE that none of the customers actually owe any tax.

The IRS probably has the legal right to use information from Benson as PART OF THE PROCESS of trying to make its own administrative determination as to which, IF ANY, of Benson's customers may fit into those categories. That is a perfectly permissible use of Benson's material. And even if the IRS concludes that Customer X owes tax or even has committed a crime, Customer X will be entitled to the same rights as anyone else -- regardless of what personnel in the "evil government" might believe about Benson's customers.

Ultimately, at least in the criminal context, the IRS's administrative determination is not binding. Criminal culpability is determined not by the IRS as an administrative matter, but instead through the judicial process.
Last edited by Famspear on Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Famspear
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Post by Famspear »

Above, where I wrote: "The government argued that Benson's scheme is fraudulent, and the ruled that the scheme is fraudulent" -- the word "court" should be inserted between "the" and "ruled." Didn't catch the mistake in time.
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
SteveSy

Post by SteveSy »

Famspear wrote:SteveSy wrote:
First off it's not a fraudulent tax scheme. The government refuses to prove whether his information is invalid or not.
First off, the government specifically argued in open court that Benson's information is invalid -- and the court has ruled that Benson's information is invalid.
No they didn't. They simply, in a nut shell, said it doesn't matter what evidence he has. They never have shown that his information is invalid.
And the government has not "refused" to prove Benson's scheme is fraudulent.
There is no "scheme".

Benson rehashed his arguments in this particular case. The government argued that Benson's scheme is fraudulent, and the ruled that the scheme is fraudulent. I posted the quotes from the decision already. Remember, Steve, we're talking here about the real law, not the fake "SteveSy law" that you have previously said you decide for yourself.
You're not talking about "real law", that's for sure. You're talking about fabricated law. Almost everything you promote is based on mere decree and can not be found in any documented law. It's always a rehash of some nonsense spewed by some person made and derived from his own opinion.

The courts have ruled Benson's non-ratification argument to be without merit - over and over for the past twenty years or so. Benson's own arguments could not keep him out of jail years ago. Despite this, Benson himself again raised his arguments again in this very case in this year of 2007.
Which is crap...of course it has merit. He has documents historical proof that events took place and there was fabricated votes taking place. Again, its all based on "because we said so", not because we can prove you wrong. Federal courts, especially concerning taxes is in fantasy land where law is whatever some guy in a black robe feels he wants the law to be. A lot of the times is totally and contradictory to common sense and what is written by law makers.

Benson's hair-splitting over whether he has been allowed to "prove" his case -- which you and other tax protester types have gullibly parrotted
I haven't parroted any of Benson's arguments. I've never claimed the 16th wasn't and isn't a part of the constitution. As always, you can't win with legitimate points you have to resort to ad hominem attacks in a desperate effort to win an argument.





This means that at this point in the history of the republic, the only material inquiry on this point: What have the courts already ruled? Not "what does Benson say", and not "what do the original source documents say". Philander Knox (the Secretary of State in 1913) looked at the source documents many years ago. Bill Benson supposedly looked at source documents in the mid-1980s, and made his arguments in open court. And the courts have repeatedly considered Benson's arguments. Benson and others like him litigated and re-litigated the issue. The courts ruled in every single case that the Sixteenth Amendment is a valid amendment to the United States Constitution.
You're right...not because they showed Benson's material was invalid or wrong but merely because Knox said it was ratified and nothing more. Every single vote could have been misreported and under the court's position it would still be ratified again showing how absurd, ridiculous and hollow the federal court system has become when it concerns taxes. They aren't even interested in facts or evidence just who wins.

Let's face it, even if it was undeniable the income tax was unconstitutional concerning average citizens it wouldn't matter the court would still operate under the guise it was valid. The court would NEVER put congress in the position to deal with such an issue regardless of what is presented.
Last edited by SteveSy on Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Famspear
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Post by Famspear »

OK I was able to fix it after all.
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Duke2Earl
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Post by Duke2Earl »

This whole thing from Sybil is just more blather. He doesn't think, in his God mode, that anyone should have to pay income taxes. And so therefore he thinks not paying taxes shouldn't be a crime. So therefore any attempt by the government to prosecute anyone for not paying taxes is "oppression." So obviously the government trying to ascertain who might not be paying taxes is corruption. And, of course, Sybil also would be against the government trying to find out who bought a book entitled "How to build a nuclear bomb in your basement."
My choice early in life was to either be a piano player in a whorehouse or a politican. And to tell the truth there's hardly any difference.

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SteveSy

Post by SteveSy »

Duke2Earl wrote:This whole thing from Sybil is just more blather. He doesn't think, in his God mode, that anyone should have to pay income taxes. And so therefore he thinks not paying taxes shouldn't be a crime. So therefore any attempt by the government to prosecute anyone for not paying taxes is "oppression." So obviously the government trying to ascertain who might not be paying taxes is corruption. And, of course, Sybil also would be against the government trying to find out who bought a book entitled "How to build a nuclear bomb in your basement."
I'm all for a VAT....
SteveSy

Post by SteveSy »

CaptainKickback wrote:You do realize that a Value Added Tax (VAT) a.k.a. a national sales tax, will consume a larger portion of a poor person's income than a middle class person's or a rich person's income, which makes it regressive in nature.
What I realize is that everyone will pay their fair share.

I don't get to buy my groceries cheaper because I make less than Bill Gates, and Bill doesn't pay more because he earns more. We both buy groceries therefore we both pay for what we consume equally.
Last edited by SteveSy on Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Famspear
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Post by Famspear »

SteveSy wrote:
I haven't parroted any of Benson's arguments. I've never claimed the 16th wasn't and isn't a part of the constitution. As always, you can't win with legitimate points you have to resort to ad hominem attacks in a desperate effort to win an argument.
Ad hominem attack? No, you are parrotting Benson's arguments here and now - especially his argument that he has not been allowed to prove his case.

I quoted from the court's decision. You ignored the court's decision and indeed you contradicted what the court said. I called you on it. I have already won my "points."

I'm not trying to "win" an argument, and I'm not "desperate." I'm here to lecture you, not to win an argument with you.
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
SteveSy

Post by SteveSy »

Famspear wrote:SteveSy wrote:
I haven't parroted any of Benson's arguments. I've never claimed the 16th wasn't and isn't a part of the constitution. As always, you can't win with legitimate points you have to resort to ad hominem attacks in a desperate effort to win an argument.
Ad hominem attack? No, you are parrotting Benson's arguments here and now - especially his argument that he has not been allowed to prove his case.
He never has....that's without question. They won't let him present anything to show he is not promoting a bogus argument.
I quoted from the court's decision. You ignored the court's decision and indeed you contradicted what the court said. I called you on it. I have already won my "points."
You didn't show anything.....the court has made it very clear its not an issue they're going to deal with. They're simply going accept the fact that Knox ratified the amendment, end of story.
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Post by Duke2Earl »

SteveSy wrote:
CaptainKickback wrote:You do realize that a Value Added Tax (VAT) a.k.a. a national sales tax, will consume a larger portion of a poor person's income than a middle class person's or a rich person's income, which makes it regressive in nature.
What I realize is that everyone will pay their fair share.

I don't get to buy my groceries cheaper because I make less than Bill Gates, and Bill doesn't pay more because he earns more. We both buy groceries therefore we both pay for what we consume equally.
Did you ever notice how many people who are not particularly weathy are all for dramatically reducing taxes imposed on the wealthy and dramatically increasing taxes imposed on the poor and middle class because it's "more fair?" Boggles the mind.
My choice early in life was to either be a piano player in a whorehouse or a politican. And to tell the truth there's hardly any difference.

Harry S Truman
SteveSy

Post by SteveSy »

Duke2Earl wrote:
SteveSy wrote:
CaptainKickback wrote:You do realize that a Value Added Tax (VAT) a.k.a. a national sales tax, will consume a larger portion of a poor person's income than a middle class person's or a rich person's income, which makes it regressive in nature.
What I realize is that everyone will pay their fair share.

I don't get to buy my groceries cheaper because I make less than Bill Gates, and Bill doesn't pay more because he earns more. We both buy groceries therefore we both pay for what we consume equally.
Did you ever notice how many people who are not particularly weathy are all for dramatically reducing taxes imposed on the wealthy and dramatically increasing taxes imposed on the poor and middle class because it's "more fair?" Boggles the mind.
That's because they are objective and do not base their decisions on who should suffer more because you or someone else has less. Personally I find no reason to punish success, ingenuity or ambition. We should want our society to strive for success not to punish it.

Taxes should be paid by everyone, equally. If anyone should pay more its those who receive more from the government in the form of handouts. Maybe they'll try a little harder to be self reliant.
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Post by Duke2Earl »

SteveSy wrote:That's because they are objective and do not base their decisions on who should suffer more because you or someone else has less. Personally I find no reason to punish success, ingenuity or ambition. We should want our society to strive for success not to punish it.

Taxes should be paid by everyone, equally. If anyone should pay more its those who receive more from the government in the form of handouts. Maybe they'll try a little harder to be self reliant.
Do you make a resolution every morning to say something completely idiotic in public?
My choice early in life was to either be a piano player in a whorehouse or a politican. And to tell the truth there's hardly any difference.

Harry S Truman
SteveSy

Post by SteveSy »

For Famapear:


From the government:

These “facts,” which relate solely to defendant’s contention that the Sixteenth Amendment was never ratified, constitute matters that are irrelevant, immaterial, impertinent and scandalous with respect to the issues and subject matter of this civil action. Furthermore, for the reasons set forth at length in plaintiff’s reply brief, defendant is collaterally estopped from challenging the validity of the Sixteenth Amendment or its ratification as a result of the decision in United States v. Benson, 941 F.2d 598, 607 (7th Cir. 1991), that held that the ratification of the Sixteenth Amendment was a nonjusticiable political question that was “beyond review” by the federal courts.
- RESPONSE TO BENSON’S LOCAL RULE 56.1 STATEMENT OF MATERIAL FACTS
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Post by Evil Squirrel Overlord »

SteveSy wrote:Taxes should be paid by everyone, equally. If anyone should pay more its those who receive more from the government in the form of handouts. Maybe they'll try a little harder to be self reliant.
So you advocate massive taxes on the oil and defense industries?
SteveSy

Post by SteveSy »

Duke2Earl wrote:
SteveSy wrote:That's because they are objective and do not base their decisions on who should suffer more because you or someone else has less. Personally I find no reason to punish success, ingenuity or ambition. We should want our society to strive for success not to punish it.

Taxes should be paid by everyone, equally. If anyone should pay more its those who receive more from the government in the form of handouts. Maybe they'll try a little harder to be self reliant.
Do you make a resolution every morning to say something completely idiotic in public?
It's only idiotic because you don't agree....

We have a nation of defendants that are virtually helpless without government simply because of socialists such as yourself. You and people like you have fixed nothing and have in fact made the problem of helplessness and poverty much, much worse. As I have said many, many times would we have more poor or less if we cut off all government programs created since the great depression. Of course we have far, far more helpless people than we ever had in that era. You're like the parent that lets their 35 year old son bunk in the basement playing video games until 3:00 am without a job feeling good about yourself that you're a good parent for making sure he was being taken care of.
SteveSy

Post by SteveSy »

Evil Squirrel Overlord wrote:
SteveSy wrote:Taxes should be paid by everyone, equally. If anyone should pay more its those who receive more from the government in the form of handouts. Maybe they'll try a little harder to be self reliant.
So you advocate massive taxes on the oil and defense industries?
No I support a VAT. There should be no subsidies for either of those by the way.
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Post by Duke2Earl »

SteveSy wrote:
We have a nation of defendants that are virtually helpless without government simply because of socialists such as yourself. You and people like you have fixed nothing and have in fact made the problem of helplessness and poverty much, much worse. As I have said many, many times would we have more poor or less if we cut off all government programs created since the great depression. Of course we have far, far more helpless people than we ever had in that era. You're like the parent that lets their 35 year old son bunk in the basement playing video games until 3:00 am without a job feeling good about yourself that you're a good parent for making sure he was being taken care of.
Ahh the Sybil view of history.... there wouldn't be poverty if we had no social programs. I wonder what all those slums in 18th and 19th century London were about?
My choice early in life was to either be a piano player in a whorehouse or a politican. And to tell the truth there's hardly any difference.

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Post by Evil Squirrel Overlord »

SteveSy wrote:We have a nation of defendants that are virtually helpless without government simply because of socialists such as yourself. You and people like you have fixed nothing and have in fact made the problem of helplessness and poverty much, much worse. As I have said many, many times would we have more poor or less if we cut off all government programs created since the great depression. Of course we have far, far more helpless people than we ever had in that era. You're like the parent that lets their 35 year old son bunk in the basement playing video games until 3:00 am without a job feeling good about yourself that you're a good parent for making sure he was being taken care of.
Having just chased a 40 something year-old metally ill woman around campus all day I really take exception to the above statement.
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Post by Famspear »

SteveSy's quote from the government:
These “facts,” which relate solely to defendant’s contention that the Sixteenth Amendment was never ratified, constitute matters that are irrelevant, immaterial, impertinent and scandalous with respect to the issues and subject matter of this civil action. Furthermore, for the reasons set forth at length in plaintiff’s reply brief, defendant is collaterally estopped from challenging the validity of the Sixteenth Amendment or its ratification as a result of the decision in United States v. Benson, 941 F.2d 598, 607 (7th Cir. 1991), that held that the ratification of the Sixteenth Amendment was a nonjusticiable political question that was “beyond review” by the federal courts.
Good boy, Steve. Now go back and read what Benson argued in his own filings with the court. Then re-read what the court ultimately ruled in its opinion. (Hint: I am sending you on a fool's errand, Steve, since you do not understand what you are reading.)
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet