Benson Enjoined, But No Customer Lists?

[grixit]

You do realize that a Value Added Tax (VAT) a.k.a. a national sales tax, will consume a larger portion of a poor person's income than a middle class person's or a rich person's income, which makes it regressive in nature.

What I realize is that everyone will pay their fair share.

I don't get to buy my groceries cheaper because I make less than Bill Gates, and Bill doesn't pay more because he earns more. We both buy groceries therefore we both pay for what we consume equally.

I suspect Bill Gates buys a few more items in the "luxury" category.

[LPC]

We have a nation of defendants that are virtually helpless without government simply because of socialists such as yourself. You and people like you have fixed nothing and have in fact made the problem of helplessness and poverty much, much worse. As I have said many, many times would we have more poor or less if we cut off all government programs created since the great depression.

Of course. Let the poor eat cake.

Why didn't I think of that?

I would never wish misfortune on anyone, but it would be interesting to watch to see what would happen if Sybil were ever afflicted with any misfortune and then had to apply to himself for charity.

(Which will never happen, of course, because Sybil is perfect and impervious to worldly events.)

[RyanMcC]

Yes, but with a VAT, far, far, far less of Gates' income (by percentage) goes towards the VAT than Johnny X making $24,000 a year.

Like Social Security.

[Quixote]

Yes, unless Johnny X has kids, and thus qualifies for the earned income credit, the social security tax is one of the regressive taxes he pays.

[SteveSy]

What I realize is that everyone will pay their fair share.

I don't get to buy my groceries cheaper because I make less than Bill Gates, and Bill doesn't pay more because he earns more. We both buy groceries therefore we both pay for what we consume equally.

I suspect Bill Gates buys a few more items in the "luxury" category.

Yes, but with a VAT, far, far, far less of Gates' income (by percentage) goes towards the VAT than Johnny X making $24,000 a year.

So what?

Why should Gates pay more as a percentage of his income than some poor person? You're saying on a dollar for dollar basis Gates should be required to pay more than someone else as a percentage, how the hell is that fair? Bill should pay $.60 on the dollar while a poor person should get a frigging credit and have a $1.05 on every dollar. This argument is akin to complaining you that you should have to pay less for your new car than Gates because Gates makes more and can afford it. What's worse in our current system is when someone who does the same job as someone else works overtime and is taxed more on a dollar for dollar basis trying to get ahead than someone who runs home after 40 hrs, in effect punishing ambition and hard work.

btw, Gates does a hell of a lot more for the country than a poor guy does making minimum wage.

[Prof]

To answer Stevesy:

Gates should pay more because he gets more -- more money, more benefits, more protection, etc. He benefits a lot more from the services provided by government than a poor guy and he probably costs the government a lot more -- he uses more airport space for his private plane, he uses more hiway space for his multiple vehicles, etc.

He has been rewarded more by the system that the government runs/protects/builds, etc.

And, how do you know that Gates does more for the country than some minimum wage PFC in Iraq (and PFC's probably still don't make more than minimum wage) putting his body between the terrorists and the US that Gates enjoys/benefits from so much?

How do you know that Gates does more for the country than some little-more-than-minimum wage school teacher in Watts or South Texas or Gregory, SD, struggling to teach basic skills to kids who will one day grow up to be potential consumers of Microsoft or, more importantly, minimum wage PFC's who place their bodies between bullets and this country?

[SteveSy]

To answer Stevesy:

Gates should pay more because he gets more -- more money, more benefits, more protection, etc. He benefits a lot more from the services provided by government than a poor guy and he probably costs the government a lot more -- he uses more airport space for his private plane, he uses more hiway space for his multiple vehicles, etc.

That's one way to look at it but there is another. Gates gives far more than the poor guy without paying a penny in taxes. How many millions does he just give away, my guess is far more as a percentage than any poor person. He also provides employment for a large number of people, who use their paychecks to buy goods and services with that keep the country moving. He has created goods that provide critical infrastructure to our country. As far as using the roads more, well he pays more in gas tax to use them.

He has been rewarded more by the system that the government runs/protects/builds, etc.

The flip side is without him many people would be unemployed without work relying on the government. He provides goods and services that run a good portion of our country.

And, how do you know that Gates does more for the country than some minimum wage PFC in Iraq (and PFC's probably still don't make more than minimum wage) putting his body between the terrorists and the US that Gates enjoys/benefits from so much?

So you're going to use a micro percentage of the population to defend your position....pretty weak if you ask me. How many poor people serve in Iraq as a percentage. btw, IMO service personnel shouldn't pay any tax.

How do you know that Gates does more for the country than some little-more-than-minimum wage school teacher in Watts or South Texas or Gregory, SD, struggling to teach basic skills to kids who will one day grow up to be potential consumers of Microsoft or, more importantly, minimum wage PFC's who place their bodies between bullets and this country?

Gates does far more than any school teacher for our nation....btw, school teachers aren't poor. In any case there is no reason to tax him more dollar for dollar than anyone else. Everyone enjoys the protections of the U.S. Without people like gates we would be a third world country and there wouldn't be much worth protecting. You should be thankful we have people like him around not punishing him. Maybe he would be a little less likely to run off with his jobs and help some other nation that appreciates what he does for them like India.

[LPC]

Sybil has successfully hijacked the thread, and the last page of posts (including mine) are more appropriate to R&R, so I'm shutting this thread down.

Anyone interested in the Benson case can start a new thread here, and anyone wanting to debate progressive taxation can choose from among several existing threads in R&R.

[Quixote]

And, how do you know that Gates does more for the country than some minimum wage PFC in Iraq (and PFC's probably still don't make more than minimum wage) putting his body between the terrorists and the US that Gates enjoys/benefits from so much?

How many poor people serve in Iraq as a percentage. btw, IMO service personnel shouldn't pay any tax.

The PFC is Iraq does not pay any income tax due to the combat zone exclusion. That, of course, has no bearing on their value to the US relative to Bill Gates.

The flip side is without him many people would be unemployed without work relying on the government. He provides goods and services that run a good portion of our country.

If Gates weren't doing it, someone else would. And maybe IT wouldn't have to install patches on my computer 3 times a week.

What's worse in our current system is when someone who does the same job as someone else works overtime and is taxed more on a dollar for dollar basis trying to get ahead than someone who runs home after 40 hrs, in effect punishing ambition and hard work.

No. Punishment, by definition, inhibits the behavior it punishes. High tax rates have never inhibited ambition or hard work. A study, done when marginal rates reached 70%, showed that top executives, the ones paying that 70%, worked just as hard for $0.30 on the dollar as for $0.50 cents on the dollar. At their level, the work, not the money, is the reward.