Liberty Dollar Fights Back

[webhick]

gorilla tactic

Who knew Liberty Dollars had anything to do with primates?

It's still better than thud-like tactics. But you'll have to ask Reno's dad for more information on that one.

[notorial dissent]

I would have to say it is a case of much too little much too late. In the first place, who do they think they are kidding? The damage has already been done, and the fact that they are making the changes they are only goes to prove that they knew they had crossed the line and just hoped that no one would notice or care-they were obviously very fatally wrong.

They may, and I say may, have managed to make their current products legal, but in doing that they have all but admitted they knew they were breaking the law. The only hope they had was in trying to convince a jury that they hadn’t intended to commit fraud, when it was every bit obvious that that was exactly what they were doing. I do not believe that a jury will have any problem not seeing it for what it is.

[SteveSy]

They may, and I say may, have managed to make their current products legal, but in doing that they have all but admitted they knew they were breaking the law.

So if they do nothing after the treasury claimed they were violating the law and continue on as normal and maintain their innocence then they are snubbing their nose at the law and deserve to fry because they knew they were doing wrong at that point due to being notified. If they adjust their way of business to satisfy the government, regardless of how they feel, then its an admission that knew they were breaking the law to begin with and should fry.

I love how those you disagree with and dislike are always wrong and deserve to fry no matter what they do.


btw, I've been meaning to ask you what does "notorial dissent" mean? Isn't "notorial" spelled incorrectly? Is it meant to imply a notarized dissent?

[.]

Sybil, you miss the point.

Their actions are quite obviously an attempt to stop violating the law, but their guilt will be proven using their prior actions. What they do now is really neither here nor there.

Some merely find it interesting to observe how fast they are back-tracking.

VonNutHouse ought to use the sledge-hammer on himself.

"Gorilla," indeed.

[notorial dissent]

You just don’t get it do you Stevie?

They were violating the law to begin with, they knew it, and were just hoping no one would get wise, they were so very wrong and it blew up in their face. If they had been, in fact, doing it out of ignorance, once they were contacted they should have immediately stopped, and said, “Oh, gee, we’re ever so awfully dreadfully sorry, we didn’t know we were doing something wrong and we won’t ever do it again.” The other option, which they obviously didn’t take either, was to say “Well gee, we really don’t think what we are doing is wrong, and here is why, and if you still don’t agree with us we’ll go to court and get a legal determination.” Well guess what Stevie, they didn’t do that either, since they knew they would lose since they did know what they were doing was wrong, so they took the third road which has landed them where they are now.

They did in fact thumb their nose at the gov’t, which is never a good idea at best, and kept right on doing what they were doing under the very mistaken belief that the gov’t would ignore them and go away, which of course they didn’t. The plain fact of the matter is that they knew they were wrong, and tried to brazen it out, and of course lost. If, as you say, they had adjusted their ways after the first contact, then yes I would say they were trying to comply with the official concerns, but they didn’t do that. They waited until long after they were in deep trouble. They had two honorable options, and they chose not to take either of them, which to my mind, and apparently the prosecution, says that they knew exactly what they were doing, and that they knew it was in fact illegal.

The other part of this which you keep trying to avoid is that the real charge here was money laundering, that will be the big one, and the one that will get them the most time. According to the court papers, they had been under investigation for quite some time before the charges were actually filed, so there was and is more than just the selling of overpriced trinkets here. The utterance charge is just the icing on the cake, which is the money laundering charges. So I would think long and hard before I started bleating about persecution here.

Get over yourself Steve, it has nothing to do with “disagree with or dislike” in this case. I don’t know why this is such a difficult concept for your tiny mind to wrap itself around, but the plain fact is they were in open and complete violation of the utterance statutes, it is as simple as that. There is nothing illegal or wrong with the concept of barter, or using various things for barter. Where I have a philosophical problem with them is that they started out on a lie, and then built from there. Their sol called “currency” was NOT inflation proof, it came with a built in inflation of 100% to start with, they were falsely denominated from the beginning, and that was another lie. Unless you knew that the $10 Libby only contained $5 worth of silver then accepting them in the belief that they were worth what they were marked was fraud. I’ll put it in simple enough terms even you will understand. Someone pays $200 you with a check for a job you did for them. When it comes back from the bank, you only get $100 because that was all the check was worth. You would be screaming bloody murder that you had been cheated. There is no difference between this scenario and the one with the Libby. It is marked one thing and worth something else. So unless you intentionally gave a 50% discount on the bill Stevie, you got took.

Personally I think some of the specialty stuff von Nuthouse was producing was quite good work, I didn’t and still don’t think it was worth what he was trying to sell it for, but had he been willing to sell it for the value of the silver, and a little over for the artistic value, then it would have been a decent collectible, sans the attempts to impersonate US coinage. For the most part, bullion collectibles are going for metal plus about 10%, and anything over that is a waste of money.

In answer to your other questions Stevie, one is a Notary, one does a Notorial act.

[iamfreeru2]

Actually, it is a Notarial Act and not a Notorial Act. You won't find Notorial in any dictionary I know of.

[Demosthenes]

It's spelled "notorial" in the "Dictionary of Words and Phrases Used in Ancient and Modern Law" By Arthur English and appears more than 12,100 times on Google...

[iamfreeru2]

It is in one dictionary. However, google asks me if I mean Notarial when I search the word Notorial. Just because it has so many hits on google does not make it correct. I looked it up in the law dictionaries I have and it does come up in one that says it is the Scottish form of Notarial. So I guess if we were in Scotland it would be correct.

[webhick]

I always took it as a bit of creative liberty with the word notorious.

I'm not sure if I can wrap my warped mind around the Scottish Stampy-Stampy.

[Demosthenes]

You'd find it in Canadian reference books as well as numerous other countries, including US government websites. But silly me, you're a tax protester, and therefore are well aware of every spelling variation of every entry in every dictionary without ever having to look, and those 12,000+ google hits are all obviously wrong.

[Demosthenes]

Samples found online:

http://www.virginia.gov (The VA Secretary of the Commonwealth):

Anyone who wishes to make a formal complaint against a notary public for incorrectly performing a notorial act must submit in writing a brief description detailing the complaint and a copy of the notarized document in question.

http://www.azleg.gov (The Arizona legislature) from the text of HB 2033:

A notary public is an impartial witness and, EXCEPT IN CASES WHERE A NOTORIAL ACT WOULD BE LAWFUL UNDER SECTION 41-320 AS A BUSINESS TRANSACTION, shall not notarize the notary's own signature or the signatures of any person who is related TO THE NOTARY by marriage or adoption.

The State of Iowa website:

A judicial officer performing a notorial act, according to state or federal law, is not required to acquire and use a stamp or seal.

Nevada law:

a notorial act is any act that a notary public of Nevada is authorized to perform, including taking an acknowledgement, administering an oath or affirmation,executing a jurat or taking a verification upon oath or affirmation, witnessing or attesting a signature, certifying or attesting a copy, and noting a protest of a negotiable instument.

[notorial dissent]

Actually, it is a Notarial Act and not a Notorial Act. You won't find Notorial in any dictionary I know of.

If you have a complaint, take it up with the National Association of Notaries as that is how they use it, also most of the state statutes use the distinction.

[Agent Observer]

Stevesy:

I love how those you disagree with and dislike are always wrong and deserve to fry no matter what they do.

To quote Beavis, from Beavis and Butthead star-dom:

"Cook, cook, COOK!"

[Imalawman]

Okay, here's the plan everyone. We're going to have to issue a Quatloos edition of the Libby. We'll call it the Quibby. So, all we need now, is $1000 in FRNS annually and $200 for a Hallmark that says:
Not Authorized by US Gov't
Not Legal Tender
Woodchucks Are Crunchy
Not Current Money
Squawk Like a Chicken

So where and to whom do I send my money? I want in on this.

[webhick]

Okay, here's the plan everyone. We're going to have to issue a Quatloos edition of the Libby. We'll call it the Quibby. So, all we need now, is $1000 in FRNS annually and $200 for a Hallmark that says:
Not Authorized by US Gov't
Not Legal Tender
Woodchucks Are Crunchy
Not Current Money
Squawk Like a Chicken

So where and to whom do I send my money? I want in on this.

Well, I'll set up a private Illuminati escrow account at Freemason Holdings. You can send it attention to "webhick the Irresistable" care of "Ramuh, God of Thunder and Champion of Biscuits" at the Dayton, OH location of Freemason Holdings.

[Disilloosianed]

You can send it attention to "webhick the Irresistable" care of "Ramuh, God of Thunder and Champion of Biscuits" at the Dayton, OH location of Freemason Holdings.

Is that the Dayton Super 8 or the Motel 6?

[webhick]

You can send it attention to "webhick the Irresistable" care of "Ramuh, God of Thunder and Champion of Biscuits" at the Dayton, OH location of Freemason Holdings.

Is that the Dayton Super 8 or the Motel 6?

Freemason Holdings moved out of the Motel 6 a few years back because the ice machine started shooting salami at pigeons. Which would have been okay, but it looks like the salami was also made out of pigeon and that is where we draw the line. You don't chuck slices of someone's ground up carcass at their relatives unless it's in the will.

We are now basing our Dayton, OH operations out of the "Environmental Temperature Control" office. And don't think the name is any coincidence.

[LDE]

Wait, isn't the Ohio Masonic headquarters in Sandusky?

Getting back to the thread topic ...

In Western Massachusetts certain communities use Berkshire Dollars. These are coupons that local merchants accept at a premium; you pay a few percent less for your purchase with the Berkshire Dollars than with FRNs. Since only mom-and-pop businesses accept them, but not the national chains, the idea is to keep local resources in the community. Berkshire Dollars resemble a "private currency" but nobody has ever suggested they are illegal. Treasury doesn't care.

Here's why the Liberty Dollar is a fraud.

From NotHaus' own Web site, quoted on another thread:

The Liberty Dollar brings free enterprise to the creation of money. Doesn't it just make sense that when the underlying commodity increases in value the purchasing power of the currency should increase in value? Well that is exactly what happened in 2005. The Liberty Dollar Moved Up from the $10 Silver Base to the new $20 Silver base and all Liberty Dollars DOUBLED in value. Just imagine, while your US Dollars are losing purchasing power, the Liberty Dollars are appreciating in value and rewarding everyone holding the new gold and silver currency that keeps pace with inflation.

Plus the Liberty Dollar is easy for merchants and customers use because it functions dollar-for-dollar with the US dollar as its "unit of account" is exactly the same.

Here's where it becomes a scam. A couple of years ago I called the first merchant in Austin listed as accepting Liberty Dollars. Most businesses on the list were defunct, but I found an auto-repair shop that took them. This was around the time of the revaluation.

The woman I talked to said they accepted Libbies one to one, that is, you could pay for your $200 car repair with $200 in Libbies.

Now, if this were really an inflation-proof currency, a metal-based store of value, then it cannot "function dollar-for-dollar with the U.S. dollar as its 'unit of account' is exactly the same." As the price of silver rises, the cost of car repair in Libbies needs to be adjusted so that repairs cost fewer Libbies than FRNs. But NotHaus is encouraging the opposite.

Unless you're paying careful attention to the fact that the new $20 Libby = the old $10 Libby, you're at risk of accepting half as much silver for the comparable purchase as before the revaluation. Some store of value. And now they're planning a $50 Libby? Backed by how much metal, one ounce of silver?

The woman I talked to said they were able to accept Libbies because their supplier (a parts company) accepted them. OK, I buy a muffler from a wholesaler for $75 in FRNs and sell it to the merchant for $75 in Libbies. Then after the revaluation I exchange them for $150 in new Libbies. If the merchant is sticking with the one-to-one exchange rate (Libbies:FRNs) then overnight the merchant's stock is worth 50% less in Libbies. Or the merchant can maintain two price lists, but unlike, say, the Canadian dollar, the Libby doesn't float freely in currency markets, so it might be quite hard to figure the fair exchange rate. What a headache.

Back in the winter of 1976–77 I was in Italy, where they had private currencies for small denominations. The system was a nightmare. You could only exchange a note at the bank that issued it, meaning that travelers left Italy stuck with small bank notes that were worthless anywhere else. In Scotland there were four private banks that issued Scottish pounds; some Scots nationalists refused to take any note with the Queen's picture on it, while back in England they would only accept the Scots pounds at a discount. Luxembourg accepted Belgian money at par, but Belgians wouldn't take the Luxembourg franc. And so on. The euro was a huge improvement over this patchwork system.

The cure for our rapidly depreciating currency is fiscal responsibility, not a gold standard. Today most "money" is financial credits, many generated outside the formal banking system. Currency is such a small part of the picture that worrying about whether paper money is backed by metal is just so second millennium.

I might add that the federal government has been very lax in allowing "replica" coins, such as "a tribute to the new buffalo nickel" made oversized in silver and sold on collectible-coin t.v. channels. To me these also are counterfeits and should have been banned from sale.

[notorial dissent]

So in other words, the whole premise behind the Libby, is a crock...... far from being inflation proof it comes with it’s own built in 100-200% built in inflation that is ever increasing. A really sound investment for the financially astute-NOT!!!!!!! Just one more scam for the mathematically challenged to fall prey to.
Incidentally, I agree wholeheartedly about the replica coins, I think they are every bit the counterfeit that the Libby is, the only difference-and the one probably saving their behinds, is that they are odd sized enough, or different enough that it is unlikely that anyone is going to take them for anything other than what they are, although the NY coin came close-and as I understand got shut down by the NY AG’s office.

On a personal note, I think the defacement statute should be extended to the outlets who gild, color, or otherwise change the appearance of legal tender coins, for any purpose whatsoever, but that is just my personal gripe.

[Imalawman]

This thought occurred to me last night. I don't know if its been discussed before, but how does the libby actually work as currency? Specifically, to my knowledge they have no breakdown of the Libby dollar. I believe the smallest denomination is a paper dollar. But most people only own the coins. If something costs 12 libbys. But you only have a $20 libby, how could you get change in libbys? Do participating stores carry change in libbys? Also, is everything just even dollars? What about sales tax? There aren't any penny, dimes, or quarters in libbys are there? It seems like the whole thing is designed in some way to exchange the libbys for FRNs. Its seems less like a currency and more like a novelty payment system that wasn't very well thought out. I would have thought it would have been better to start with lower denominations and work up rather than the opposite. And until the stores start carrying change for libbys, it wouldn't be a functional currency, you'd have to have part of every transaction contain frns. Just more evidence this whole thing was a half-baked fraudulent scheme.