UK - Neelu Berry opens my eyes

[Gregg]

Because plenty of research will show that the people who know the most about religion are often Atheists, I'll offer this little history lesson.

Lucifer is merely the punisher of the damned, he didn't do anything to lead them there. That, as he himself says, is on you.



I'm not quite sure exactly where the line on religion is, but as long as no one is fighting about it, and its more of an external view, I'm not gonna stop it, although I must add, be careful.

[longdog]

Because plenty of research will show that the people who know the most about religion are often Atheists...

Not sure how it works out with average atheist vs average theist but I never cease to be amazed at the poor arguments of doorstep evangelists or their ignorance of their own 'holy book'.

When you have doorsteppers invoking Pascal's Wager and making "science doesn't know therefore goddidit" claims it's just low hanging fruit.

Only once have I had a doorstep evangelist that put up a good fight. A young west African lad earlier this year who didn't make the fatal mistake of claiming biblical infallibility or literalism. It was actually a joy arguing with him and we parted with the consensus that we had different standards for what constituted reasonable proof and we would respect each other's right to have those standards.

Of course there is the entirely reasonable claim that evangelism has nothing to do with converting the heathen and everything to do with strengthening the dependency of the people sent out to evangelise. They are sent out ill equipped and ignorant of their own religion and get an almost uniformly bad reception. This proves that the world outside the church is hostile and the only safe place is the church... Now give us all your money.

When I have had 'arguments' with people who know their shit, vicars, rabbis and so on, they rarely even get to argument level and are just conversation about our difference of opinion. Tell me the Book of Genesis is literally true and I'm going to tear you a new one. Tell me it's myth or allegory that has a message and I'll agree with the first bit and disagree with the second but listen.

[AnOwlCalledSage]

Not sure how it works out with average atheist vs average theist but I never cease to be amazed at the poor arguments of doorstep evangelists or their ignorance of their own 'holy book'.

My favourite hobby when I was a student was to invite Jehovah's Witnesses in for a cuppa. Armed with only my 'O' Level Religious Studies (Grade C) I could run rings around them. Once you take them off piste they are lost.

[JohnPCapitalist]

Of course there is the entirely reasonable claim that evangelism has nothing to do with converting the heathen and everything to do with strengthening the dependency of the people sent out to evangelise. They are sent out ill equipped and ignorant of their own religion and get an almost uniformly bad reception. This proves that the world outside the church is hostile and the only safe place is the church... Now give us all your money.

This is very definitely the case with Jehovah's Witnesses. Until the numbers started looking bad a couple years ago, headquarters published a "Service Year Book" annually, with stats for all the countries around the world, showing how many active members of each level, how many conversions, hours of bible study and, notably, how many hours of "witnessing" were done. If you looked at the math, in the most recent one (2018, IIRC), dividing the number of baptisms by the number of hours of "witnessing" in the US yielded one baptism for every 10,000 hours of witnessing. That is five person-years of full-time employment for each new body. And when you consider that the baptism statistic includes children who grew up in the church, which probably accounts for half the total, you've got 20,000-plus hours of "witnessing" per new recruit. That's several times the effort that they used to need decades ago to drag a new member in the door.

They've increasingly moved to what they call "cart witnessing." A bunch of them will stand around a cart with a literature rack and wait for people to show interest. Of course, nobody does. And they're all talking amongst themselves, undoubtedly about how tragic it is that all the wicked heathens walking by will be consumed by hellfire in the next few years when their Vengeful Jesus returns and smites everyone except the JW's.

I also recall a few of them at the City Hall subway station every morning at 6:00 when I was on my way downtown to work. Three or four dour looking 70-something ladies standing there holding up fire-and-brimstone pamphlets which absolutely nobody even slowed down to look at. Never talked to anyone, or asked if they were interested in learning about how to achieve everlasting life.

And, of course, the press of iPhones and other internet apps have made it very difficult for those high-control groups to hang on to the young'uns. JW's lose around 2/3 of the kids raised in the religion, the highest percentage of any major Christian denomination, even with increasingly draconian requirements to engage in shunning of non-believers. Most other evangelical groups are losing high numbers, typically around half of the kids. JW membership growth in G-20 countries is flattening, after nearly a century of increase rates well above population growth, though they're still growing like gangbusters in some developing regions.

Unfortunately, the JW's also have another problem: their group is the least-educated and lowest-earning of any major denomination. Bad marketing decision on their part. They are hemhorraging money and could be teetering on the edge of bankruptcy. As one data point, headquarters recently decreed that all surplus funds that were previously owned by local congregations needed to be remitted to HQ post haste. They sold their prime Brooklyn waterfront real estate for $1.7 billion (IIRC) and moved to a new cheaper facility upstate perhaps 15 years ago, and the money from that went out not long after. So some experts think they're losing $400 to $500 million annually on a donation stream of something like $1.5 billion.

[John Uskglass]

My favourite hobby when I was a student was to invite Jehovah's Witnesses in for a cuppa. Armed with only my 'O' Level Religious Studies (Grade C) I could run rings around them.

My mum was something of a bible scholar, who took an MA in theology as a mature student, and part completed her PhD. She delighted in telling unfortunate JW's where contemporary bible texts differed from the meaning of the original Koine Greek.

[longdog]

I think the LDS are my favourite evangelists.

"I'd have to give up beer, wine, tobacco, cannabis, tea, coffee, being gay and porn... So what's in it for me?"

"Eternal life"

"Eternal life without beer, wine, tobacco, cannabis, tea, coffee, being gay and porn... So I ask again... What's in it for me?"

They usually give up at that point.

[grixit]

When you have doorsteppers invoking Pascal's Wager and making "science doesn't know therefore goddidit" claims it's just low hanging fruit.

I like to pre empt Pascal's Wager by reciting it first, but as an argument for Islam.

[grixit]

This is very definitely the case with Jehovah's Witnesses. Until the numbers started looking bad a couple years ago, headquarters published a "Service Year Book" annually, with stats for all the countries around the world, showing how many active members of each level, how many conversions, hours of bible study and, notably, how many hours of "witnessing" were done. If you looked at the math, in the most recent one (2018, IIRC), dividing the number of baptisms by the number of hours of "witnessing" in the US yielded one baptism for every 10,000 hours of witnessing. That is five person-years of full-time employment for each new body. And when you consider that the baptism statistic includes children who grew up in the church, which probably accounts for half the total, you've got 20,000-plus hours of "witnessing" per new recruit. That's several times the effort that they used to need decades ago to drag a new member in the door.

They've increasingly moved to what they call "cart witnessing." A bunch of them will stand around a cart with a literature rack and wait for people to show interest. Of course, nobody does.

Earlier this year, before lockdown, i spent some time at the local community college sitting at a table trying to encourage students to vote for democratic candidates, or failing that, to at least vote. There were witnesses a few dozen feet away. I never saw anyone approach them.

On the other hand, last month i received a surprise in the mail, a genuine hand written letter from an unknown address. I opened it, and it was from a witness who wanted to start a conversation by correspondence. I was touched by the amount of effort involved as presumably, i was not the only recipient. After some googling and a few holmesian logic sequences, i was able to figure out who he was on Facebook. I sent him a thanks but no thanks message on that platform.

On the third hand, though, i really do like the illustrations in their pamphlets.

Also, the mormons have adopted a virtual doorbell strategy as well. But not as strenuous a one. Instead they just friend me on Facebook. I've had 4 so far.

[grixit]

I think the LDS are my favourite evangelists.

"I'd have to give up beer, wine, tobacco, cannabis, tea, coffee, being gay and porn... So what's in it for me?"

"Eternal life"

"Eternal life without beer, wine, tobacco, cannabis, tea, coffee, being gay and porn... So I ask again... What's in it for me?"

They usually give up at that point.

Silly, don't you know, once you've made it to the Celestial Realm, you get your own world to be God of. After that the rules are up to you. You can create new life, call them Adam and Steve, to worship you. You can take on mortal form and live among them as the owner of Studio 54. You can create your own plant life, make coffee without bitterness, alcohol without hangovers, thc without the munchies, and porn that is all made by enthusiastic participants without exploitation.

I mean isn't that woth 50 years of gritting your teeth through a hetero marriage and wearing the stupidest, least comfortable suits and white shirts every day?

[LaVidaRoja]

Not to mention the funny underwear!

[longdog]

Silly, don't you know, once you've made it to the Celestial Realm, you get your own world to be God of. After that the rules are up to you. You can create new life, call them Adam and Steve, to worship you. You can take on mortal form and live among them as the owner of Studio 54. You can create your own plant life, make coffee without bitterness, alcohol without hangovers, thc without the munchies, and porn that is all made by enthusiastic participants without exploitation.

I mean isn't that woth 50 years of gritting your teeth through a hetero marriage and wearing the stupidest, least comfortable suits and white shirts every day?

You nearly had me swayed until the suit bit.

[ArthurWankspittle]

My favourite hobby when I was a student was to invite Jehovah's Witnesses in for a cuppa.

Just don't do what some naughty antipodeans did and offer "space cakes" as well as the cuppa.

[Foggy]

When I graduated high school in 1971 and drove my VW bus from a suburb of our nation's capital to the wilds of the Haight-Ashbury in San Francisco, a lot of people thought it was a great idea to convert me to their religion. I was approached and invited by more religions than I even knew about, having previously been a somewhat sheltered Episcopalian.

At some point, I decided to figure out which religion made the most sense. If I had just landed from Mars and had no idea about religions, and was exposed to the wide variety and all their different belief systems, which one was the most logical? Which one was based on facts? Which one was the most rational and intelligent?

So I gave up on religion entirely. I'm an agnostic now, which isn't the same as an atheist. I don't claim there is no supernatural god that can boss us around and run the world. I'm just waiting for more evidence.

This way, I'm covered if I die and it turns out Religion Number 37 was the real one. They can search my record as thoroughly as they want. They can check everything I ever said or did. I never criticized Number 37, and I never said it wasn't the real, actual religion, and I never told anybody they were fools for believing Number 37.

I'll just say, "Oh, Number 37, is it? Well, I'm down with that and happy to make your acquaintance. I'm a Number 37 guy from here on out."

What are they gonna do? I'm an agnostic. It could be Number 14 or Number 72 or any other one. They'll never find any evidence I said it wasn't the real one, and I'll be willing to join in as long as I have the evidence which one is the one.

Ya gotta think these things through, is all.

[Hercule Parrot]

Well, it's either unfortunately (as in ****in' 'ell that was traumatic) or fortunately (I can first person attest to it) that I was there in court for her sentencing.

Hoaxstedders are the finest of us. Thank you for everything you did.

[Normal Wisdom]

I see in her latest video that Neelu is now calling for the release of 'political prisoners' including Sabine McNeill. She seems to have been prompted back to this issue by a rekindled association with, the clearly crazy, Jake Clarke, who appears to be testing how close to the line of his "gagging order' preventing him talking about the Hoaxtead case he can go. He really is a loathsome individual and I'd love to see him becoming a 'political prisoner' too. Neelu of course revisits the case of her niece (which is why I am not attaching the video). I thought she had some kind of injunction regarding that although I suppose someone would have to make a complaint to enforce it.

[AnOwlCalledSage]

I thought she had some kind of injunction regarding that although I suppose someone would have to make a complaint to enforce it.

Yes. She has an indefinite Civil Restraint Order which she has breeched on numerous occasions. However (I only suspect as I'd be quite happy to dump her in it if it is not the case) I think the complaint has to come from one of the named parties in the order and they quite clearly have moved on and aren't aware that she continues to libel them.

[exiledscouser]

Trouble is, Neelu’s target audience for these libels are almost exclusively the swivel-eyed SRA lunatic community and those from the “believe any old shite” conspiracy theory brotherhood.

These people, properly fired up on her invective are likely to do real harm to someone. As recent events have proven.

I feel a little helpless in reporting her to TPTB as there doesn’t appear to be a route to gain the ear of someone interested enough to act.

[AnOwlCalledSage]

I feel a little helpless in reporting her to TPTB as there doesn’t appear to be a route to gain the ear of someone interested enough to act.

If she breeches her first CRO she can be arrested, and would be. The order is quite clear and she has breached it on numerous occasions.

However, I don't think it is a general invitation to contact the police. I think one of the persons named has to do it. If anyone can tell me different, I'm perfectly willing to dob her in, but I don't want to waste my or police time if a general member of the public cannot notify.

[John Uskglass]

She has an indefinite Civil Restraint Order

But does she? I can't see her on the lists.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/civil-restr ... -with-cros

[AnOwlCalledSage]

But does she? I can't see her on the lists.

She was given one back in 2009.

Ilford Pharmacist Struck Off for Making False Allegations of Conspiracy, Negligence, and Murder.

The committee's chairman, John Burrow, said that although there was no evidence of any criminal convictions against Mrs Chaudhari, she had been subject to a number of sanctions including a permanent restraining order imposed by the High Court.

I think I may have used the wrong terminology (CRO). It looks like those need to be renewed every two years and are related to initiating litigation. Otherwise, perhaps there has been a change in the law since she was given one.