A flurry of acitivity in the Brown follower trials

[Dr. Caligari]

I believe that if the Browns and supporters were really going to kill U.S. agents they would have...all they had to do was pull the trigger.

When? By the time they knew the people arresting them were agaents, they were already handcuffed.

I personally think they were all talk, pretending to be someone they weren't.

All talk is not a crime. Actually buying guns, however, is more than "all talk," and is a crime, if a jury believes they intended to use them. Assembling bombs is also a lot more than "all talk," and, if I am not mistaken, is a crime whether or not they intended to use them.

[ErsatzAnatchist]

I believe that if the Browns and supporters were really going to kill U.S. agents they would have...all they had to do was pull the trigger. I personally think they were all talk, pretending to be someone they weren't.

Before anyone else tells you that you are an idiot, let me tell you that you are an idiot. Ed Brown never had a chance to pull the trigger. While he might have not pulled the trigger (I agree that he was a huge blow hard), I would not have bet even your life on it, let alone mine.

[Dr. Caligari]

Steve: put yourself in the place of the government agents. The court had issued a warrant for the Browns' arrest. What should the agents have done-- walked up the front path and said "we have a warrant, come out"?

[SteveSy]

There is no conceivable, justifiable, or acceptable reason on this earth, short of being a collector-and I have reservations there as well, for anyone wanting, owning, or let along using a 50 cal rifle. It has one and one purpose only. The same applies to hand grenades, and pipe bombs. There is only one reason to have them, or make them, and it isn’t to go the Sunday Social, or at least I hope it isn’t. There is no excuse, or reason for any of those people to have been playing with toys like that unless they had at least the fantasy of killing someone, and none of those are nice ways to go. The minute any of those moral defectives saw that stuff coming in or being made they should have hightailed it out of there if they didn’t in fact believe in the party line, and at some point intend to participate. I find it very hard muster much in the way of sympathy for any of that group. I will say it now and get it out of my system, that it is entirely too bad that they whole bunch of them were too damned inept to have not blown their worthless and useless carcasses to the netherworlds where they so right belong.

Under the assumption that there is a good government doing the right thing, then the Browns and supporters should be punished for making threats against government officials. I feel the same about threatening anyone for that matter. You should be punished for threatening to kill people, assuming those people are not hurting you in some way.

I personally think the government is totally wrong to begin with. The Brown's owed some taxes big f-ing deal. No need to throw them in prison, take everything they had plus insure they won't have anything in future due to penalties and interest. What the government took and will take far surpasses the original tax debt. IMO it's really no different than any other fascist regime in action. It's just a debt and nothing more. They probably would have gotten less time and lost less property and money if they molested children. Pretty sad if you ask me.


btw, my father owned several UZI's and a 50 cal for a long time. No he wasn't a TP or militia member, he just liked guns. Just because you have those types of guns does not mean you are looking to kill people.

[SteveSy]

Steve: put yourself in the place of the government agents. The court had issued a warrant for the Browns' arrest. What should the agents have done-- walked up the front path and said "we have a warrant, come out"?

Yes... and if they refused as the Brown's did then just let them rot there. The government shouldn't have let the people help them though. IMO the reason they let people in was just a method to legitimize the round up a bunch of anti-government people.

[SteveSy]

I believe that if the Browns and supporters were really going to kill U.S. agents they would have...all they had to do was pull the trigger. I personally think they were all talk, pretending to be someone they weren't.

Before anyone else tells you that you are an idiot, let me tell you that you are an idiot. Ed Brown never had a chance to pull the trigger. While he might have not pulled the trigger (I agree that he was a huge blow hard), I would not have bet even your life on it, let alone mine.

Of course he had a chance....give me a break. It's not like they stormed his house and he had no chance to pull the trigger. He could have shot an agent whenever he wanted to. So could have any of his supporters. He gave up without incident once he realized he was done for. Not one single shot was fired at any agent at any time during this incident.

[Imalawman]

I believe that if the Browns and supporters were really going to kill U.S. agents they would have...all they had to do was pull the trigger. I personally think they were all talk, pretending to be someone they weren't.

Before anyone else tells you that you are an idiot, let me tell you that you are an idiot. Ed Brown never had a chance to pull the trigger. While he might have not pulled the trigger (I agree that he was a huge blow hard), I would not have bet even your life on it, let alone mine.

Of course he had a chance....give me a break. It's not like they stormed his house and he had no chance to pull the trigger. He could have shot an agent whenever he wanted to. He gave up without incident once he realized he was done for.

Have you forgotten that he claimed he did shoot at agents? He routinely fired shots into the woods at what he suspected were agents. He was disappointed that they were in fact just his own imagination. But the fact remains that he tried to kill gov't agents whenever he had the chance.

[Dr. Caligari]

Of course he had a chance....give me a break. It's not like they stormed his house and he had no chance to pull the trigger. He could have shot an agent whenever he wanted to. So could have any of his supporters. He gave up without incident once he realized he was done for.

Steve, you are entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts. Brown thought he was dealing with a supporter until he was handcuffed.

[SteveSy]

Before anyone else tells you that you are an idiot, let me tell you that you are an idiot. Ed Brown never had a chance to pull the trigger. While he might have not pulled the trigger (I agree that he was a huge blow hard), I would not have bet even your life on it, let alone mine.

Of course he had a chance....give me a break. It's not like they stormed his house and he had no chance to pull the trigger. He could have shot an agent whenever he wanted to. He gave up without incident once he realized he was done for.

Have you forgotten that he claimed he did shoot at agents? He routinely fired shots into the woods at what he suspected were agents. He was disappointed that they were in fact just his own imagination. But the fact remains that he tried to kill gov't agents whenever he had the chance.

Sure he did.....

I think you're just taking liberty with what he said or what happened in order to make your opinion appear acceptable. From what I remember, there were reports of shots heard in the woods but no one stated they were trying to kill agents or that it was even anyone affiliated with the Brown's. Cough up a statement saying he was trying to shot agents.

[SteveSy]

Of course he had a chance....give me a break. It's not like they stormed his house and he had no chance to pull the trigger. He could have shot an agent whenever he wanted to. So could have any of his supporters. He gave up without incident once he realized he was done for.

Steve, you are entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts. Brown thought he was dealing with a supporter until he was handcuffed.

Oh I know that....

But you don't think he or any of his supporters had a chance to kill federal marshals or agents during this incident? Did he resist arrest once he knew he was done for? Did anyone run for their guns and bombs or was the federal swat unit or whatever so good that they simultaneously disarmed and subdued all the supporters and prevented any impossibly of retaliation when this happened?

[Imalawman]

Of course he had a chance....give me a break. It's not like they stormed his house and he had no chance to pull the trigger. He could have shot an agent whenever he wanted to. He gave up without incident once he realized he was done for.

Have you forgotten that he claimed he did shoot at agents? He routinely fired shots into the woods at what he suspected were agents. He was disappointed that they were in fact just his own imagination. But the fact remains that he tried to kill gov't agents whenever he had the chance.

Sure he did.....

I think you're just taking liberty with what he said or what happened in order to make your opinion appear acceptable. From what I remember, there were reports of shots heard in the woods but no one stated they were trying to kill agents or that it was even anyone affiliated with the Brown's. Cough up a statement saying he was trying to shot agents.

here's just one example - "If the dog indicates she sees something in the woods, I'll pop off a few rounds in the woods," he said. - By Marc Robins, Globe Correspondent, October 5, 2007. There are more example, but I don't have the time to dig all of them up. You can find more too, with probably just a google search.

The fact remains Steve, that Ed made the statements over and over that he was dead set on killing agents. Whether he meant them or not is, IMNSHO, immaterial.

[Famspear]

Regarding the takedown, Elaine Brown is alleged to have written:

Dutch/Dan also brought 3 pizzas, and we broke out the beer, we all sat on the front porch eating pizza and drinking beer, just relaxing. Suddenly they all jumped us. Dutch/Dan was sitting on my right, and he grabbed me[,] securing my hands. Once he had me secured, one of the others tazered me on my left knee. The other four men had Ed on the floor, they had actually forced him out of his chair, through the front door, and onto the foyer floor[.] we were immediately handcuffed. I behind my back. My memory of Ed is he was handcuffed in front and shackled feet and waist.

--(bolding added).

From:

http://www.makethestand.com/

(without comment)

[SteveSy]

Have you forgotten that he claimed he did shoot at agents? He routinely fired shots into the woods at what he suspected were agents. He was disappointed that they were in fact just his own imagination. But the fact remains that he tried to kill gov't agents whenever he had the chance.

Sure he did.....

I think you're just taking liberty with what he said or what happened in order to make your opinion appear acceptable. From what I remember, there were reports of shots heard in the woods but no one stated they were trying to kill agents or that it was even anyone affiliated with the Brown's. Cough up a statement saying he was trying to shot agents.

here's just one example - "If the dog indicates she sees something in the woods, I'll pop off a few rounds in the woods," he said. - By Marc Robins, Globe Correspondent, October 5, 2007. There are more example, but I don't have the time to dig all of them up. You can find more too, with probably just a google search.

The fact remains Steve, that Ed made the statements over and over that he was dead set on killing agents. Whether he meant them or not is, IMNSHO, immaterial.

Ok, but does he say he's trying or aiming to kill them or shoot directly at them? He doesn't even have a target....it seems to me he's just looking to scare them off.

Let's get this straight, he deserves under law to be punished for stating he will act aggressively towards agents. However, Brown is no terrorist....he's an old man with a strongly held belief and when push came to shove he didn't have the balls to back up all his tough talk. He certainly doesn't deserve 25 years for what he did. He'll end up, because he's an anti-government nonconformist, serving more time for a nonviolent crime than if he had molested small children. The truth of the matter is the government severely punishes people who don't conform or are seriously anti-government and act on their opinions, like not paying taxes. People caught engaging in that activity are treated worse than if they molested children.

[Demosthenes]

Ok, but does he say he's trying or aiming to kill them or shoot directly at them? He doesn't even have a target....it seems to me he's just looking to scare them off.

And preventing the Browns' arrest by scaring the government agents off (without aiming at particular marshals) is what the fab four have been charged with.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/924.html

There are differing sentenced for idiots who threaten vs actually brandishing a weapon vs. actually shooting that weapon at agents.

[Demosthenes]

Ok, but does he say he's trying or aiming to kill them or shoot directly at them? He doesn't even have a target....it seems to me he's just looking to scare them off.

And preventing the Browns' arrest by scaring the government agents off (without aiming at particular marshals) is what the fab four have been charged with.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/924.html

There are differing sentenced for idiots who threaten vs actually brandishing a weapon vs. actually shooting that weapon at agents.

Brown is no terrorist....

His collection of bombs, IED, zip guns, and so on suggests otherwise.

[SteveSy]

Ok, but does he say he's trying or aiming to kill them or shoot directly at them? He doesn't even have a target....it seems to me he's just looking to scare them off.

And preventing the Browns' arrest by scaring the government agents off (without aiming at particular marshals) is what the fab four have been charged with.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/924.html

There are differing sentenced for idiots who threaten vs actually brandishing a weapon vs. actually shooting that weapon at agents.

Brown is no terrorist....

His collection of bombs, IED, zip guns, and so on suggests otherwise.

Collections don't prove anything....other than you have the means to do harm, not that you will.

You punish people for what they did do, not what they could or might do.

[Demosthenes]

Collecting bombs is illegal, Stevie.

[Nikki]

Ok, but does he say he's trying or aiming to kill them or shoot directly at them? He doesn't even have a target....it seems to me he's just looking to scare them off.

Let's get this straight, he deserves under law to be punished for stating he will act aggressively towards agents. However, Brown is no terrorist....he's an old man with a strongly held belief and when push came to shove he didn't have the balls to back up all his tough talk. He certainly doesn't deserve 25 years for what he did. He'll end up, because he's an anti-government nonconformist, serving more time for a nonviolent crime than if he had molested small children. The truth of the matter is the government severely punishes people who don't conform or are seriously anti-government and act on their opinions, like not paying taxes. People caught engaging in that activity are treated worse than if they molested children.

Are you referring to Osama Bin Laden

Steve, which part of the rule of law do you not understand?

Or is it that you only believe in the inforcement of laws with which you agree? In that case, how do you reconcile your opinion with that of your next-door neighbor?

Go back under your rock.

[SteveSy]

Collecting bombs is illegal, Stevie.

Yep, and he should be punished for having illegal weapons. They are treating this much worse than if he just had illegal weapons.

[Nikki]

Collecting bombs is illegal, Stevie.

Yep, and he should be punished for having illegal weapons. They are treating this much worse than if he just had illegal weapons.

Don't worry, he will be. Plus as a convicted felon and a fugitive, the severity of the charges is significantly enhanced.

Your rock is calling you