Sovereign Citizens That Follow the Law?

[The Observer]

Before heading into the main subject of this topic, I do want to advise everyone that this is not to devolve into a political discussion. The subject matter is certainly inviting enough to those who may want to explain away the results in terms of "left vs. right" but that is not the point here. As becomes clear later on, the "sovereign citizens" address the government units regardless of political office, party, bias or sway. Both sides of the political spectrum are open to the investigations of these citizens since they are only concerned with targeting corruption and abuse of power by the people who were elected or appointed to local offices. If you cannot avoid getting caught up in regurgitating your political views, then I suggest you do not respond at all, otherwise I will be removing your posts for violating the rules established here regarding politically-charged posts.

What if sovs actually followed the statutory law that exists in dealing with the many problems that they see or at least think they see in dealing with local governments? What if they actually used state laws to target, probe, charge, and remove officials that they find are abusing their authority and/or are corrupt? For that matter, how about a sovereign citizen that just simply performs a citizen arrest of members of a government board?

"Impossible!," you say. "There is simply no way that a sovereign citizen movement could get away with such nonsense. Even if they suddenly developed the ability to correctly understand and interpret state laws, it is up to the state to target and arrest anyone that comes under suspicion for corruption or abusing their office. No sheriff worth the metal in their badge would go along with some cockamamie scheme to arrest board members and haul them off to the pokey. And certainly no judge would ever hold up a conviction, let alone allowing such a case to ever enter their courtroom."

But then you would need to read this about one group's activities in the state of Illinois.

Of course, applying the definition of "sovruny" to this group is stretching credibility. American Watchdogs, who might be accused of being nothing more than typical gadflies, aren't involved in conspiracy theories, whacky beliefs, and "get-quick-rich" schemes from what I can see. But they are holding local officials to being accountable even if that means arresting them and getting them convicted in court. And they are doing it under the state laws that provide for government information and transparency - laws that apply to these officials regardless of their political party or lack thereof.

And proof of the arrest? Right here.

I think that what American Watchdogs are doing is what sov citizens dream of doing, but they can never aspire to reach the level of credibility that AW has achieved. For starters, AW members actively file FOIA requests and attend meetings to keep an eye on the activities; I don't think most sovs have the drive, energy, or patience that it takes to nail a local pol for corruption. Then there is the sovs' problem with being able to understand the law and its limitations on what they can achieve. And for the final nail in the coffin is the fact that sov movements have inherent corruption as their motivation for undoing the laws that they have no respect for.

[Dr. Caligari]

I don't think most sovs have the drive, energy, or patience that it takes to nail a local pol for corruption.

...or the intelligence/knowledge to understand what actual "corruption" is. (Hint: enforcing tax and traffic laws isn't it.)

[grixit]

I think the problem is that true reform groups don't start by denying that something normal and reasonable applies to them personally, like say needing a drivers license or paying their morgage.

[JamesVincent]

I would offer that most who would be considered Sovs do follow the law and do handle their dealings in a legal way. We just never hear of them since it's boring.

[Burnaby49]

Our missing in action member BMXninja is/was a dedicated sovereign but he respects and follows the law. He was as disdainful of the something for nothing parasite sovereigns as we are.

[notorial dissent]

I don't think most sovs have the drive, energy, or patience that it takes to nail a local pol for corruption.

...or the intelligence/knowledge to understand what actual "corruption" is. (Hint: enforcing tax and traffic laws isn't it.)

The good Dr has a very valid point.

In the average sovrun mind corruption/treason lies in daring to disagree with their misinterpretation of reality.

The difference runs between actually using "real" rules, regulations, and laws, and using made up fantasy rules that don't even apply in fantasy land. The real problem here is that doing that requires actually thinking, understanding what you are dealing with, and cooperating/working with other people towards a common goal, and by and large that just isn't in the average sovrun's wheelhouse. Most of them can't even agree upon what the actual revealed "truf" is, let alone work with each other long enough to get from point A to point B.

[eric]

Most of them can't even agree upon what the actual revealed "truf" is, let alone work with each other long enough to get from point A to point B.

That's what is happening right now in my own province of Alberta. Up until a few months ago life was good and everyone supported Dallas Hills and unifythepeople.ca. Somehow all the different chapters have fractured into Calgary/Edmonton - unifythepeople Alberta only; Calgary - Christopher Pritchard; Drumheller - unifythepeople Dallas Hills; Lethbridge - unifythepeople Dallas Hills, except on the weekend the people from Taber broke away from Lethbridge and are looking for a new home. Methinks they are no longer exactly unified.

[grixit]

Drumheller

Hey, that's the name of my new swedish black metal band!

[wserra]

There's a night-and-day difference between "The law doesn't apply to me" and "The law applies to everyone". Not only do I have no problem with what these guys are doing, I don't see it as political - and I certainly don't see them as sovs.

[eric]

Drumheller

Hey, that's the name of my new swedish black metal band!

Hey, don't dis Drumheller else I'll sic Jacquie Phoenix on you since that's her home town. Actually as was common at the time it was named after the land speculator who surveyed the lots and sold the land where the town grew up. Because of his lack of foresight and planning for such amenities as decent roads, potable water supply and sewers, housing conditions were rather deplorable and it was referred to as Hell's Hole or Hell's ***Hole.

[notorial dissent]

There's a night-and-day difference between "The law doesn't apply to me" and "The law applies to everyone". Not only do I have no problem with what these guys are doing, I don't see it as political - and I certainly don't see them as sovs.

I have to agree here, anyone who can hold the TPTB's feet to the fire with their own rules, more power to them.

I may be wrong here, but I have a real hard problem putting organized, cooperative, and suvrun citizen together in a compound sense as anything but an oxymoron. I just don't see it.

[The Observer]

I may be wrong here, but I have a real hard problem putting organized, cooperative, and suvrun citizen together in a compound sense as anything but an oxymoron. I just don't see it.

There's a night-and-day difference between "The law doesn't apply to me" and "The law applies to everyone". Not only do I have no problem with what these guys are doing, I don't see it as political - and I certainly don't see them as sovs.

I think what I was trying for here was to point out that the organizations that this thread is about are certainly the model of a true sovereign citizen as opposed to our usual gang of idiots. The typical sovs, as has been pointed out, are not doing this by the book. Instead, like jury nullification, they are looking for the quick and easy way to get out from underneath the government's thumb. They will not waste time trying to organize, persuade, spend money, and push for laws that they would need enacted (or repealed) that meets up with their goals. If, for example, they hate driver's licenses and car registrations then they should be working towards getting their representatives in the state government to repeal the requirements for driving and owning a car. If their state has a proposition/referendum system, then they could certainly organize a signature drive to put such a measure on the ballot. It may be unrealistic and idiotic, but nobody could ever say they were breaking the law in trying to reach that goal.

[Gregg]

Our usual gang of idiots (nice description!) are more interested in not paying for things, not following rules and saying "You ain't the boss of me".

[wserra]

Our usual gang of idiots (nice description!)

AKA the writers/artists of the original Mad magazine. Man, does that show my age.

[Burnaby49]

Your age? I was born well before the first issue of MAD in October 1952. However you did write "magazine" and the first 23 issues were just coloured comic books. It wasn't published in the familiar black & white magazine format until issue #24 in July 1955.

[noblepa]

I may be wrong here, but I have a real hard problem putting organized, cooperative, and suvrun citizen together in a compound sense as anything but an oxymoron. I just don't see it.

There's a night-and-day difference between "The law doesn't apply to me" and "The law applies to everyone". Not only do I have no problem with what these guys are doing, I don't see it as political - and I certainly don't see them as sovs.

I think what I was trying for here was to point out that the organizations that this thread is about are certainly the model of a true sovereign citizen as opposed to our usual gang of idiots. The typical sovs, as has been pointed out, are not doing this by the book. Instead, like jury nullification, they are looking for the quick and easy way to get out from underneath the government's thumb. They will not waste time trying to organize, persuade, spend money, and push for laws that they would need enacted (or repealed) that meets up with their goals. If, for example, they hate driver's licenses and car registrations then they should be working towards getting their representatives in the state government to repeal the requirements for driving and owning a car. If their state has a proposition/referendum system, then they could certainly organize a signature drive to put such a measure on the ballot. It may be unrealistic and idiotic, but nobody could ever say they were breaking the law in trying to reach that goal.

I don't think that the guys in Illinois can be called sovereign citizens. Concerned citizens, yes. Good citizens, yes. Active citizens, yes. But they do not seem to consider themselves to be "sovereign" or somehow exempt from the law. They are merely trying (apparently successfully, too) to hold government feet to the fire and force transparency and honest dealing.

They do not appear to be trying to avoid paying their personal income taxes, or to drive vehicles (travelling) without a license or insurance, or to otherwise circumvent the law.

So, I wouldn't call them sovereign citizens. They are the antithesis of sovcits.

Speaking of Mad Magazine, I remember reading that Williams Gaines, the publisher, discovered a loophole in postal mailing rates. It seems that periodicals are grouped in "volumes". Typically one volume is one year of issues. The more issues in a volume, the lower the per copy mailing price is (or at least was back the). So, from then on, Mad Magazine consisted of only one volume. The monthly issue numbers got into the hundreds.

He also once filled the office water cooler, one of those five gallon glass jugs that you inverted into a stand, with vodka (or was it gin) and then sat back and watched as the office staff (aka "The usual gang of idiots") spent the afternoon getting gloriously drunk.

When I was a kid, we all loved Mad, largely because our parents hated it and thought that it was warping our little minds. They were right, thank goodness.

My favorite was always "Spy vs. Spy".

[wserra]

When I was a kid, we all loved Mad, largely because our parents hated it and thought that it was warping our little minds. They were right, thank goodness.

Amen, brother.

My favorite was always "Spy vs. Spy".

One of the most prized souvenirs of a lengthy career, courtesy of a friend in law enforcement. You can probably guess where in law enforcement.

[JamesVincent]

Now was Mad separate from Cracked? I remember reading both as a kid, even had some of the Spy vs Spy paperbacks but never really got into the business side.

[Gregg]

Now was Mad separate from Cracked? I remember reading both as a kid, even had some of the Spy vs Spy paperbacks but never really got into the business side.

They didn't compete, I think they were bi-monthly or monthly but one was first week and the other third week, because they hit newsstands separately, on Tuesdays at the drugstore where I waited eagerly for mine.

Also, Hot Rod Comix which featured the art of Rat Fink AKA Ed "Big Daddy" Roth.

Ah, my misspent youth.

[Burnaby49]

Cracked was nothing more than a pathetic failed attempt to compete with Mad. It failed quickly. Mad really had no significant competition and did well until the times went against it. The Mad market of adolescent to young adult males no longer reads magazines and Mad, as good or as bad as it was in the last decade, couldn't compete against social media and video games. Which just puts it in the same position as most newsstand magazines.