Yet another superseding indictment for the fab four

[Demosthenes]

http://www.cheatingfrenzy.com/gonzalez162.pdf

[notorial dissent]

And the hits just keep coming. At this point they will all be approaching retirement age, if they are lucky, by the time they get out. I am beginning to doubt if Wolffe will ever leave prison now.

[Doktor Avalanche]

The manner and means by which RILEY, GERHARD, GONZALEZ,WOLFFE and the other people with whom they conspired sought to accomplish the object of the conspiracy included, among others, temporarily residing in the Browns' home, purchasing firearms, bringing firearms to the Browns' home, and publicly announcing their intention to forcibly resist efforts by the United States Marshals Service to arrest Edward Brown and Elaine Brown .

Oh.

Is it just me, or does anyone else wonder why the the USMS weren't packing their throwaways that day?

[VanMeters Revenge]

Warning Graphic Image (moderator edited)



This was a little girl. But she died a horrible death thanks to the US GOVERNMENT!

[webhick]

This was a little girl. But she died a horrible death thanks to the US GOVERNMENT!

No doubt.

But....

ED allowed children on the property while telling everyone that he wanted his little standoff to turn into Waco. ED is the one that tried to throw Reno's ass off the property when Reno suggested security measures to protect the people ON the property. ED is clearly the one here that wanted little, innocent 6 year old girls to die again.

The GOVERNMENT are the ones that let Ed stew in his own sewage for nine months while planting themselves in a position to take them down with as little physical harm done to others as possible. THE GOVERNMENT are the ones who let him throw his little parties and hold press conferences and blow smoke out his ass.

Ed is just an old fart with delusions of grandeur. He wanted to die horribly along with a lot of people (including children, since he certainly didn't bar them from the property) to make the government look bad and now all his little cult members are super pissed because the government didn't look bad at all. Oh, boo hoo. No children died. I'm happy about that. Apparently you aren't.

[.]

Warning Graphic Image (moderator edited)

VanMetersIdiocy posted an image that was supposedly a fried infant, near as I could tell, and I saw it. But, for all I know, it could have been a photo of the surface of Mars.

Of course, she then expects us to believe that whatever it was is somehow the U.S. government's fault.

A prime example of the sort of thinking that got her buddies into a position to be incarcerated for 30-plus years.

Having read quite a few of her posts, I can only hope that she joins them. Yesterday wouldn't be soon enough.

[LPC]

This was a little girl. But she died a horrible death thanks to the US GOVERNMENT!

And you think Ed Brown should have been killed the same way?

[LPC]

Of course, she then expects us to believe that whatever it was is somehow the U.S. government's fault.

The name on the photo is Melissa Morrison. I checked, and Melissa Morrison was the name of one of the child victims of the Waco debacle.

But the point of the reference is still obscure.

[Agent Observer]

Van-conspiracy-meter wrote:

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This was a little girl. But she died a horrible death thanks to the US GOVERNMENT!

..or perhaps she was killed by other Branch Davidians

Autopsy records indicate that at least 20 Davidians were shot, including five children under the age of 14, and three-year-old Dayland Gent was stabbed in the chest. The expert retained by the Office of Special Counsel concluded that many of the gunshot wounds "support self-destruction either by overt suicide, consensual execution (suicide by proxy), or less likely, forced execution."

(This difficult to find info was available on Wikipedia)

But hey, why let a few facts get in the way of your delusional and baseless hatred. None of your nutcase friends do. And not that it will do anything to help you out of your self-induced idiocy, here's a bit more information that didnt come from Hal Turner, InfoWars, or any of the other nutbag central websites you and yours rely on for information about the world:

A yearlong investigation ensued, during which the Office of the Special Counsel interviewed 1,001 witnesses, reviewed over 2.3 million pages of documents, and examined thousands of pounds of physical evidence. In his final report of November 8, 2000, Special Counsel Danforth concluded that the allegations were meritless. The report found, however, that certain government employees had failed to disclose during litigation against the Davidians the use of pyrotechnic devices at the complex, and had obstructed the Special Counsel’s investigation. Disciplinary action was pursued against those individuals.

Allegations that the government started the fire were based largely on an FBI agent’s having fired three “pyrotechnic” tear gas rounds, which are delivered with a charge that burns. The Special Counsel concluded that, because the FBI fired the rounds nearly four hours before the fire started, at a concrete construction pit partially filled with water, 75 feet away and downwind from the main living quarters of the complex, the rounds did not start or contribute to the spread of the fire. The Special Counsel noted, by contrast, that recorded interceptions of Davidian conversations included such statements as “David said we have to get the fuel on” and “So we light it first when they come in with the tank right . . . right as they’re coming in.” Davidians who survived the fire acknowledged that other Davidians started the fire. FBI agents witnessed Davidians pouring fuel and igniting a fire, and noted these observations contemporaneously. Lab analysis found accelerants on the clothing of Davidians, and investigators found deliberately punctured fuel cans and a homemade torch at the site. Based on this evidence and testimony, the Special Counsel concluded that the fire was started by the Davidians.

Charges that government agents fired shots into the complex on April 19, 1993, were based on Forward Looking Infrared (“FLIR”) video recorded by FBI Nightstalker aircraft. These tapes showed 57 flashes, with some occurring around government vehicles that were operating near the complex. The Office of Special Counsel conducted a field test of FLIR technology on March 19, 2000, to determine whether gunfire caused the flashes. The testing was conducted under a protocol agreed to and signed by attorneys and experts for the Davidians and their families, as well as for the government. Analysis of the shape, duration, and location of the flashes indicated that they resulted from a reflection off debris on or around the complex, rather than gunfire. Additionally, independent expert review of photography taken at the scene showed no people at or near the points from which the flashes emanated. Interviews of Davidians, government witnesses, filmmakers, writers, and advocates for the Davidians found that none had witnessed any government gunfire on April 19. Finally, none of the Davidians who died on that day displayed evidence of having been struck by a high velocity round, as would be expected had they been shot from outside of the complex by government sniper rifles or other assault weapons. In view of this evidence, the Special Counsel concluded that the claim that government gunfire occurred on April 19, 1993, amounted to “an unsupportable case based entirely upon flawed technological assumptions.”

This from the same, difficult to find wikipedia entry. I'm sure the same information is reflected in the official report, but you're not worth the effort of finding it and posting it...

[grixit]

In the conspiracy world, the government is also to blame for the children who died in the Okla bombing, because they shouldn't have put a daycare center in such an obvious target.

[.]

The name on the photo is Melissa Morrison. I checked, and Melissa Morrison was the name of one of the child victims of the Waco debacle

That's nice. So, what?

The idiot Davidians and their like consider that everything is the fault of the ebil goobermint. My point is that she's one of them, and too stooooopid to realize how big the hole she and everyone around her are busy digging.

The Davidians were responsible for putting themselves in a place where an ebil goobermint idiot like Butch Reno could give an order to take them down, incinerating whoever might be in the way.

For some undoubtably stupid reason, VanMetersIdiocy thought that we should care.

I don't. Not in the least.

[webhick]

For some undoubtably stupid reason, VanMetersIdiocy thought that we should care.

She doesn't want anyone to care about that little girl. She doesn't even give two shits about that poor kid. VanMeter's lack of compassion for an innocent victim of a horrible tragedy is displayed by pimping the photo and trying to use it to support someone else who clearly wanted the tragedy to repeat is inhuman and disgusting.

I think she was looking forward to posting photos of the charred remains of children from Ed's debacle. But she can't, because the government foiled Ed in his plans for another Waco or Ruby Ridge. And that pisses her off. No fame, no glory, no being referred to as an "innocent" victim of a government raid.

And she's probably super bullshit because she can't find the Midol and already licked the last bit of chocolate-flavored frosting out of the container. But that's another story.

[Dr. Caligari]

She doesn't want anyone to care about that little girl. She doesn't even give two shits about that poor kid. VanMeter's lack of compassion for an innocent victim of a horrible tragedy is displayed by pimping the photo and trying to use it to support someone else who clearly wanted the tragedy to repeat is inhuman and disgusting.

I think she was looking forward to posting photos of the charred remains of children from Ed's debacle. But she can't, because the government foiled Ed in his plans for another Waco or Ruby Ridge. And that pisses her off. No fame, no glory, no being referred to as an "innocent" victim of a government raid.

Agree with you so far.

And she's probably super bullshit because she can't find the Midol and already licked the last bit of chocolate-flavored frosting out of the container. But that's another story.

No, that's just uncalled for.

[Prof]

Whatever the point VM or the rest of you want to make, Waco was a complete disaster and unmitigated screw up on the part of both law enforcement and Koresh and his deluded followers.

As a few million people have noticed, Koresh could have been arrested off the premises. As for the final assault, the Ed Brown incident indicates that waiting for an opportunity and using intelligence and stealth prevents unnecessary violence.

My best guess is that the final assault triggered a mass suicide and murder event as the nuts killed their kids and followed Koresh to "Heaven." That said, one function, and perhaps the most justifiable function, or law enforcement is to protect the innocent like the children at Waco. The tragic events there led directly to the deaths of those children, and law enforcement bears some of the blame for using tactics certainly made the situation worse.

The contrast with Brown and the approach of the US Marshall's shows just how much the US law enforcement community has learned since Waco and Ruby Ridge.

I do not think that the FBI and (then) BATF bear even most of the burden of Waco, by the way, but their failures and the way those failures contributed cannot be ignored.

[webhick]

And she's probably super bullshit because she can't find the Midol and already licked the last bit of chocolate-flavored frosting out of the container. But that's another story.

No, that's just uncalled for.

It's okay to rail on the people with shit jobs, but not the morally repugnant? I just realized that I'm the biggest joke here and feel just completely stupid for not seeing it sooner.

[.]

their failures and the way those failures contributed cannot be ignored.

They should be. I despise Butch Reno, but I don't really care that she squashed a bunch of nut-cakes, it needed to be done, whether or not the nut-cakes inflicted most of the damage on themselves (and they probably did.) They certainly forced the government's hand. What did they expect?

The result was that we treated the next bunch of nut-cakes, namely Ed family:blowhard, et al, with kid-gloves. Now, expectations have been changed.

The next result will be even worse.

[Agent Observer]

Prof said

Whatever the point VM or the rest of you want to make, Waco was a complete disaster and unmitigated screw up on the part of both law enforcement and Koresh and his deluded followers.

That's all well and good, but this thread didn't end up on the topic of Waco as a result of an ideological discussion. The point of bringing out the facts surrounding Waco was to demonstrate the intellectual dishonesty and outright lies that Vanmeter and her cronies surround themselves with. The "Do's," "Don'ts" and "lessoned learned" from Waco are another discussion entirely.

[Dr. Caligari]

It's okay to rail on the people with sh*t jobs, but not the morally repugnant? I just realized that I'm the biggest joke here and feel just completely stupid for not seeing it sooner.

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here.

I agree with you that VM is morally repugnant, and I agreed with your railing against her on that basis. The "midol" remarks, on the other hand, are railing against her for being a woman, and I think are over the line for that reason.

[Nikki]

The Midol remark came FROM a woman who is therefor given some latitude in insulting members of her own gender.

Plus, what's the use of allowing trolls on the site if we can't take cheap, but funny, shots at them.

[webhick]

I didn't mean to make it seem like I was railing against her for being a woman. Sorry.