LostHead Wonders Why No Real Attorney Takes Him Seriously

[Doktor Avalanche]

12/24/07

I live in a community of over two million people and there are only three tax attorneys here, all of whom are pro-government. In speaking to one of them, I learned he knew nothing about Cracking the Code and when he went to the lost horizons website and viewed it for about ten seconds he remarked that it was a total SCAM. He then proceeded to intimidate me by saying even if I were to file my back taxes in the traditional way it might be too late to save me from the clutches of the IRS, and I would be most fortunate if I did not go to prison in about two years. This is a pitiful situation for the individuals who choose not to fight their own legal battles with the U.S. Treasury and IRS, and need/want the help of attorneys.
Have any of you had success in finding willing, competent attorneys to help you uphold the law and go to bat for you? Comments please.

Taxdoc

By "intimidate" he probably meant "tried to slap some sense into me and save my sorry ass."

But that's not all. One of the brighter ones offers this explanation.

I would avoid attorneys for the most part. I have found that they know only court procedure, and their knowledge of law is usually limited to their usual area of practice.

Secondly, they are complete BOOTLICKERS of the judges. Did you know that a judge can tell an attorney in open court that his wife is a big fat cow, and that the next day, he is going to jump off of the bench and go kick him in the nuts, and the attorney is duty bound to reply with the phrase "Thank you, your Honor."

What I would suggest is that everyone learn how to litigate for themselves. The reason our government has gotten so out of control is that we as a people do not know how to manage our own legal affairs. Our founding fathers did not mean for us to suffer at the hands of a rogue government because we couldn't afford an attorney, or cound not find one who would agree with us. I hope everyone understands how important an issue this is.

There are some good sites which offer instructional courses on legal procedures, and how to research law.

I love that one bit: learn to litigate for yourself. Isn't that what got Pete and his followers into trouble in the first place?

Hey Dan: what's it like being a bootlicker and how often does the judge insult your wife and/or threaten to kick you in the nuts?


http://www.losthorizons.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=111

[.]

learn how to litigate for themselves

Absolutely. Makes perfect sense.

Why, just on the possiblity that I might need quadruple-bypass heart surgery sometime in the future, I think I'll start studying up on that there stuff so I can do it myself.

After all, how hard could it be? Anyone should be able to do it, same as litigating for yourself. Shouldn't take more than an hour or two to figure it out. I know! I'll do some researches on it on them there internets! Them guys with there fancy sights gots all the secrets. I'm sure it'll work at least as good as CtC!

Them damn doctors spend a couple of decades goofing off in schools and training just so they can screw us over with high prices while they whine about the cost of becoming a doctor!

I heard it's all a conspiracy by the Queen and the evil Joos. Who needs doctors? Do it yourself!

[Imalawman]

Hey Dan: what's it like being a bootlicker and how often does the judge insult your wife and/or threaten to kick you in the nuts?

Although I've never been insulted or threatened by a judge, sometimes their rulings can feel like a swift kick in the nuts.

What pisses me off is that I've never seen a judge act anything other than extremely civil and polite to TPs - even bending over backwards to help them out. While most TPs get very nervous in front of them and simply make a fool of themselves, some are real asses. Simply because they lose, they infer that the judge hates them and loves the government.

[Nikki]

Although I've never been insulted or threatened by a judge, sometimes their rulings can feel like a swift kick in the nuts.

What pisses me off is that I've never seen a judge act anything other than extremely civil and polite to TPs - even bending over backwards to help them out. While most TPs get very nervous in front of them and simply make a fool of themselves, some are real asses. Simply because they lose, they infer that the judge hates them and loves the government.

Until the Judge writes a scathing opinion and / or says the three magic words: sanctions sua ponte.

[Imalawman]

Although I've never been insulted or threatened by a judge, sometimes their rulings can feel like a swift kick in the nuts.

What pisses me off is that I've never seen a judge act anything other than extremely civil and polite to TPs - even bending over backwards to help them out. While most TPs get very nervous in front of them and simply make a fool of themselves, some are real asses. Simply because they lose, they infer that the judge hates them and loves the government.

Until the Judge writes a scathing opinion and / or says the three magic words: sanctions sua sponte.

I meant at first...you can be enough of an ass to piss of a judge, but in my experience, it takes a lot when you're pro se.

[grammarian44]

I live in a community of over two million people and there are only three tax attorneys here, all of whom are pro-government.

Anyone else see a problem with the plausibility of this statement?

[Prof]

yes.

[Famspear]

grammarian44 wrote:

Anyone else see a problem with the plausibility of this statement?

Yeah, I would like to know what city the clown was talking about. Would that be a city in the USA? I don't think so.

But (and I hate to generalize, but here goes:) tax protesters are an extremely gullible bunch. So a statement like that (only 3 tax lawyers in a city of 2 million) might sail right over the heads of most the readers there.

[Famspear]

And of course, all 3 lawyers are "pro-government" -- because they are psychologically normal (ie they don't believe tax protester garbage).

[Investor]

Anyone else see a problem with the plausibility of this statement?

I have a perfectly logical explanation for this, drawing on personal experience. In narrowing the field down to 3 tax attorneys, this person had the following conversation dozens of times:

TaxDoc: Hello, I am calling because I see you are listed as an attorney specializing in tax. I wanted you to represent me in "cracking the code".

Attorney: Cracking the code?

TaxDoc: Yes, you know, cracking the code. The truth about income taxes - that nobody is really subject to them but the IRS misclassifies your profession on your IMF to fraudulently put you into the system.

Attorney: I'm sorry, I don't practice tax law.

TaxDoc: But the bar lists you as a tax lawyer and your wesite says you specialize in representation of taxpayers.

Attorney: Oh, those must be typos. I'll see about getting them fixed right away. Sorry I couldn't help you.

TaxDoc: Well, do you know any tax lawyers?

Attorney: [thinking for a brief second about how funny it would be to refer TaxDoc to his drinking buddy from law school] No, I don't run in those circles, sorry.

I've actually had similar conversations.

[Imalawman]

That's a good point Investor.

In the many TP cases that I've tried, I've never had an attorney licensed to practice law represent a TP. But almost every one them said that they tried to obtain licensed counsel.

[Weathervane]

12/24/07

I live in a community of over two million people and there are only three tax attorneys here, all of whom are pro-government. In speaking to one of them, I learned he knew nothing about Cracking the Code and when he went to the lost horizons website and viewed it for about ten seconds he remarked that it was a total SCAM. He then proceeded to intimidate me by saying even if I were to file my back taxes in the traditional way it might be too late to save me from the clutches of the IRS, and I would be most fortunate if I did not go to prison in about two years. This is a pitiful situation for the individuals who choose not to fight their own legal battles with the U.S. Treasury and IRS, and need/want the help of attorneys.
Have any of you had success in finding willing, competent attorneys to help you uphold the law and go to bat for you? Comments please.

Taxdoc

The reason this individual was not taken seriously by the lawyer had nothing to do with his wierd views on taxation and everything to do with he probably had no money.

Of course the lawyer could be brutally honest the minute he found out the guy couldn't afford his representation or just wanted some free advice.

Sorry to be so cinical, but if the guy was a working professional...or a famous actor, I doubt this respected member of the bar would have batted an eyelash at taking more of this fool's money and treating him with all due respect.

[Investor]

Sorry to be so cinical, but if the guy was a working professional...or a famous actor, I doubt this bloodsucker would have batted an eyelash at taking more of this fool's money and treating him with all due respect.

When I practiced tax controversy, I turned down many a potential client who was very capable of paying the bills. Life is just too short to get wrapped up in this garbage - fees or no fees.

[Weathervane]

Sorry to be so cinical, but if the guy was a working professional...or a famous actor, I doubt this bloodsucker would have batted an eyelash at taking more of this fool's money and treating him with all due respect.

When I practiced tax controversy, I turned down many a potential client who was very capable of paying the bills. Life is just too short to get wrapped up in this garbage - fees or no fees.

Good for you, investor. You set a fine example.

[The Observer]

Maybe, just maybe, this city is the legendary hidden city of Notaxeshereville, USA, the nirvana of TPs everywhere. Right up there with the Fountain of Youth and the golden cities of El Dorado. The stories abound about Notaxeshereville:

(1) Not just any TP gets to go there - the city is hidden very well to discourage the wannabes and the Illuminati from discovering it. Only the true believers and diligent students of the real law can ever hope to find it, after long hours of arduous study of and investing their meager wealth in TP research material.

(2) A map to the city is cleverly hidden over a series of coded instructions and dispersed through the various TP writings that have been published. It is rumored that Cracking the Code, purporting to show why you don't have to pay income tax, is really at a deeper level the true key to unlocking the coded instructions.

(3) No lawyers are allowed in Notaxeshereville nor any other vestige of government. The 3 lawyers mentioned above appeared in the city after accidentally stumbling onto the first version of the code, which was tightened up after that. The lawyers are kept on display in the local museum as an example of how horrible life is outside of Notaxeshereville. An interactive audio exhibit allows the citizens to ask "sample tax" questions of the lawyers and listen to the lies that pour forth. Rotten fruit and vegetables are close by for those patriots who wish to refute the lawyers in a physical way.

(4) Evry April 15th is the celebration of Notaxmas where everyone receives presents (but don't give any) wrapped in blank 1040 forms; these are eagerly torn up during the unwrapping and contributed to the pile for the community bonfire where the IRS is burned in effigy that evening.

(5) Every person is free to interpret the law as they see it, regardless how this interpretration impacts on their fellow citizen. As such, the property values in Notaxeshereville are very, very low and everyone can afford the standard-issue double-wides. No one has to work and sponging off their neighbor is the national sport.

(6) Contrary to what one would think, well-known TPs such as Ed Brown or Irwin Schiff are not held in high regard in Notaxeshereville. They are viewed as losers and failures, as false prophets who failed and submitted to the beast. And no citizen will ever admit to being a follower of these TPs.

[Imalawman]

The reason this individual was not taken seriously by the lawyer had nothing to do with his wierd views on taxation and everything to do with he probably had no money.

Of course the lawyer could be brutally honest the minute he found out the guy couldn't afford his representation or just wanted some free advice.

Sorry to be so cinical, but if the guy was a working professional...or a famous actor, I doubt this respected member of the bar would have batted an eyelash at taking more of this fool's money and treating him with all due respect.

I can certainly understand that point of view. But my experience tends to contradict that view. Just last year, I litigated a case against a well off person that had turned TP. He could have afforded a very good lawyer and it would have been worth his while. However, he stated that no one would represent him.

Its one thing to represent a tax nut in a criminal suit, its another matter to do so in a civil suit. There's just no way that lawyer could represent a TP as they want to be represented and avoid paying sanctions and face disbarment. Thus, I think you find that many a TP could afford a lawyer, but any lawyer worthwhile will not agree to representation in a civil context. I don't think its possible to avoid sanctions and do so.

[Weathervane]

I can certainly understand that point of view. But my experience tends to contradict that view. Just last year, I litigated a case against a well off person that had turned TP. He could have afforded a very good lawyer and it would have been worth his while. However, he stated that no one would represent him.

Its one thing to represent a tax nut in a criminal suit, its another matter to do so in a civil suit. There's just no way that lawyer could represent a TP as they want to be represented and avoid paying sanctions and face disbarment. Thus, I think you find that many a TP could afford a lawyer, but any lawyer worthwhile will not agree to representation in a civil context. I don't think its possible to avoid sanctions and do so.

True enough. And I should be the last to paint with a too-wide a brush.

I guess the bad taste in my mouth has to do with the fees I paid attorneys who (after I had already been through my criminal ordeal, with excellent represenattion and advice, btw) told me I could get approved on an OIC. Both attempts were flatly rejected on grounds that any competant tax attorney should have known from the beginning. All it cost me was more time and money.

And just two weeks ago, I lawyer around here I've known for years was about to let me go to court (his fee: $3-5k) on a civil matter that I would have gotten my butt kicked...a landlord/tennant dispute. Thankfully, I got some excellent free advice from TWO other attorneys who, yes, without charging me a dime...recommended I work something out with the other party out-of-court. Which I did.

[Investor]

And just two weeks ago, I lawyer around here I've known for years was about to let me go to court (his fee: $3-5k) on a civil matter that I would have gotten my butt kicked...a landlord/tennant dispute. Thankfully, I got some excellent free advice from TWO other attorneys who, yes, without charging me a dime...recommended I work something out with the other party out-of-court. Which I did.

I can honestly say that I've never been involved in a litigious matter in which I didn't suggest the same thing - if you can, keep the lawyers out of it. Litigation should always be an absolute last resort. Then again, as a lawyer, I tend to have a pretty negative attitude about lawyers myself - I don't blame you for your views. I've dealt with the ilk of your OIC attorneys and I know others who will drag out litigation for years in order to collect fees (it's very frustrating to be representing the other side in these matters). Again, for me life is too short for that crap.

[LPC]

When I practiced tax controversy, I turned down many a potential client who was very capable of paying the bills. Life is just too short to get wrapped up in this garbage - fees or no fees.

From The Collected Humor of an Uncollected Mind:

Every experienced lawyer has an instinctive way of knowing when to turn a case down. For some, it’s as subtle as a twitch in the vicinity of the forehead. For others, it’s a complete loss of bladder control. For me, it’s the knot that de­velops somewhere near my stomach and grad­ually spreads to my entire neuromuscular system, the only known antidote being the words, “you ought to seek other counsel.”

Over the years, I've asked a lot of lawyers if they have ever regretted taking on a client, and every single one has answered "Yes." I've also asked them if they have ever regretted turning a client away. Some of them have had to think about that, but every single one has eventually answered "no."

[Disilloosianed]

Like imalawman, I have had courts allow tps to waste loads of everyone's time indulging in their particular brand of crazy. I've had courts insist we allow the tp "his or her day" and then the tp not show. I have had courts allow them to have group prayer before the testimony began. I even had one where the husband was the wife's witness and he would call her up every so often so that he could tell her what to ask him.

I would gladly vote for an amendment that says that pro se litigants are moved to a special process where we all sit on cushions on the floor and talk about fairness and sovereignty. At least then I wouldn't have to actually get ready for a hearing knowing it's going to be a complete cluster****.