But Ned says, all federal taxes are voluntary!

[LPC]

Dan, the Judges, and Jesus.

I'm not sure I've ever seen my name in the same sentence with Jesus.

Or first.

[LPC]

You are such an idiotic dipshit joey!

Wrong

There is no greed by not paying taxes on your labor.

Wrong.

Jesus said to not swear oaths (Matt 5: 33-37).

True

Here in America the courts numberous times have ruled there are two(2) citizenships classes since the ratification of the 14th amendment.

Wrong.

These two citizens are different in that each has different rights and privileges and responsibilities.

True, in the sense that state citizenship is differnt from fedreal citizenship, but wrong in the sense that there might be two classes of federal citizenship.

One is taxed his labor the other is not.

Wrong.

26CFR1.1-1(c) is not a state citizen.

Wrong.

What 26CFR1.1-1(c) is a person who is either or was a slave or someone who swears an oath saying he is a statutory "U.S. citizen" and thus giving/granting jurisdiction over him and thus rendering to ceasar.

Wrong.

The code says you must a pay the statutory tax as a "U.S. citizen". It does not say that about state citizens.

Wrong.

Nowhere do read in title 26 the People of the United States of America are liable.

Wrong.

And to complete that incomplete statement, Jesus said render to ceasars what is ceasars and render to the Father what is the Fathers.

True.

Which makes you 2 for 10.

[LPC]

Jesus is not one of our lawmakers. He has a right to his opinion, we have the right to ignore him.

Buddhists sometimes say that, if you meet Buddha on the road, you should kill him.

I often wish that Christians would say the same thing about Jesus.

[rachel]

You are such an idiotic dipshit joey!

Wrong

There is no greed by not paying taxes on your labor.

Wrong.

Jesus said to not swear oaths (Matt 5: 33-37).

True

Here in America the courts numberous times have ruled there are two(2) citizenships classes since the ratification of the 14th amendment.

Wrong.

These two citizens are different in that each has different rights and privileges and responsibilities.

True, in the sense that state citizenship is differnt from fedreal citizenship, but wrong in the sense that there might be two classes of federal citizenship.

One is taxed his labor the other is not.

Wrong.

26CFR1.1-1(c) is not a state citizen.

Wrong.

What 26CFR1.1-1(c) is a person who is either or was a slave or someone who swears an oath saying he is a statutory "U.S. citizen" and thus giving/granting jurisdiction over him and thus rendering to ceasar.

Wrong.

The code says you must a pay the statutory tax as a "U.S. citizen". It does not say that about state citizens.

Wrong.

Nowhere do read in title 26 the People of the United States of America are liable.

Wrong.

And to complete that incomplete statement, Jesus said render to ceasars what is ceasars and render to the Father what is the Fathers.

True.

Which makes you 2 for 10.

dan the courts prove you to be a liar.

"No white person. . . owes the status of citizenship to the recent amendments to the Federal Constitution."
Van Valkenbrg v. Brown (1872), 43 Cal. Sup. Ct. 43, 47.

"The rights of the state, as such, are not under consideration in the 14th Amendment, and are fully guaranteed by other provisions."
United States v. Anthony (1873), 24 Fed. Cas. 829 (No. 14,459), 830.

“There are, then, under our republican form of government, two classes of citizens, one of the United States and one of he state”.
Gardina v. Board of Registrars of Jefferson County, 160 Ala. 155; 48 So. 788 (1909)

“The governments of the United States and of each state of the several states are distinct from one another. The rights of a citizen under one may be quite different from those which he has under the other”.
Colgate v. Harvey, 296 U.S. 404; 56 S.Ct. 252 (1935)

“...rights of national citizenship as distinct from the fundamental or natural rights inherent in state citizenship”.
Madden v. Kentucky, 309 U.S. 83: 84 L.Ed. 590 (1940)

“The rights and privileges, and immunities which the fourteenth constitutional amendment and Rev. St. section 1979 [U.S. Comp. St. 1901, p. 1262], for its enforcement, were designated to protect, are such as belonging to citizens of the United States as such, and not as citizens of a state”.
Wadleigh v. Newhall 136 F. 941 (1905)

“There is a difference between privileges and immunities belonging to the citizens of the United States as such, and those belonging to the citizens of each state as such”.
Ruhstrat v. People, 57 N.E. 41 (1900)

“We have in our political system a government of the United States and a government of each of the several States. Each one of these governments is distinct from the others, and each has citizens of it’s own...”
United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1875)

“It is quite clear, then, that there is a citizenship of the United States, and a citizenship of a state, which are distinct from each other and which depend upon different characteristics or circumstances in the individual”.
Slaughter-House Cases, 83 U.S. (16 Wall.) 36; 21 L.Ed. 394 (1873)

“...there was no such thing as citizen of the United States, except as that condition arose from citizenship of some state
United States v. Anthony, 24 Fed. Cas. 829, (Case No. 14,459)(1873)

“...he was not a citizen of the United States, he was a citizen and voter of the State,...” “One may be a citizen of a State an yet not a citizen of the United States”.
McDonel v. The State, 90 Ind. 320 (1883)

[grixit]

I believe "Dan, the Judges, and Jesus" was the title of a volume of neo beat poetry published in 1978.

[Brian Rookard]

So the question for Quatloosians is who is right? Dan and the judges, or Ned and Jesus?

Except that Jesus wouldn't agree with Ned (no surprise there).

See Romans 13 ...

"1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor." Romans 13:1-7, NKJV.

[Joey Smith]

Rachel,

Taking quotes out of context to try to make your points gives you the very same result as somebody who claims that a venetian blind is the same thing as a blind venetian.

Want to know what the courts think of your theories? Just look at those people in or going to jail, and their appeals to the courts of appeals and all the way up to the U.S. Supreme Court being denied. The courts don't agree with your kooky belief, the legal scholars don't agree with your kooky beliefs, and really nobody who matters agrees with your kooky beliefs.

[Truthstalker]

Buddhists sometimes say that, if you meet Buddha on the road, you should kill him.

I often wish that Christians would say the same thing about Jesus.

That was tried. It didn't work.

[Doktor Avalanche]

Jesus is not one of our lawmakers. He has a right to his opinion, we have the right to ignore him.

Buddhists sometimes say that, if you meet Buddha on the road, you should kill him.

I often wish that Christians would say the same thing about Jesus.

Nah, overplayed and way too Jewish.......

[Truthstalker]

And that's why we hide the eggs!!

Hmmm...could that be a cryptic reference to retractile tes.......never mind.

[Doktor Avalanche]

When is Ned ever right about anything?

My vote is for Dan.

[Doktor Avalanche]

There is no greed by not paying taxes on your labor.
Jesus said to not swear oaths (Matt 5: 33-37).
Here in America the courts numberous times have ruled there are two(2) citizenships classes since the ratification of the 14th amendment.
These two citizens are different in that each has different rights and privileges and responsibilities.
One is taxed his labor the other is not.
26CFR1.1-1(c) is not a state citizen. What 26CFR1.1-1(c) is a person who is either or was a slave or someone who swears an oath saying he is a statutory "U.S. citizen" and thus giving/granting jurisdiction over him and thus rendering to ceasar. The code says you must a pay the statutory tax as a "U.S. citizen". It does not say that about state citizens. Nowhere do read in title 26 the People of the United States of America are liable.
And to complete that incomplete statement, Jesus said render to ceasars what is ceasars and render to the Father what is the Fathers.

"Of the privileges and immunities of the citizen of the United States, and of the privileges and immunities of the citizen of the State, and what they respectively are, we will presently consider; but we wish to state here that it is only the former which are placed by this clause under the protection of the Federal Constitution, and that the latter, whatever they may be, are not intended to have any additional protection by this paragraph of the amendment. If, then, there is a difference between the privileges and immunities belonging to a citizen of the United States as such, and those belonging to the citizen of the State as such the latter must rest for their security and protection where they have heretofore rested; for they are not embraced by this paragraph of the amendment." Slaugterhouse cases

Bullshit.

[natty]

See Romans 13 ...

"1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor." Romans 13:1-7, NKJV.

Careful, if your interpretation of this passage was correct, the USA would not be and we would still be a colony of Great Britain. The Apostle Paul wrote and fully believed Jesus would return in his lifetime.

[Ned Netterville]

Thanks to all the Quatloosian boys and girls who took the time to comment on my thread.

Imalawman said,

Jesus (as incorrectly portrayed by Ned) and Ned are right.

Thanks, Ima, nice to see you agree with me.

Quixote said,

Dan and the judges are right. Ned is wrong. In Jesus's only statement concerning taxes he said pay them.

PROVE IT! But of course you can't. Sorry, Q, but Ned is quite right, and you are demonstrably wrong, for Jesus never said pay taxes, nor anything remotely like it. (Dan, pay attention, because the blog you posted, while not going quite as far as Q, definitely posits the silly proposition that Jesus may have endorsed paying taxes when he said, "Give Caesar what is Caesar's and give God what is God's.") Of course every learned Jew in Jesus' day as well as now knows that the Old Testament states unequivocally at least five times that the earth and everything in it belongs to God. I am with Jesus on this: Give Caesar what is Caesar, which is nothing, and certainly nothing the doesn't belong to him like the money in my pocket, and give God what is God, which is everything, including the money in my pocket, since it is His. Jesus meant exactly what he said, and, Dan, there is no need to interpret or misinterpret Jesus on this. Do what he says, give Caesar what is his, and I'll do the same, then we will both be behaving as discipiles..

Disilloosianed wrote,

Ok, I admit...I went and read the site, thinking, "DID Jesus actually say anything about taxes besides 'Render unto Casear...'"

And just as I thought....no.

Dis, dear, you went to one page on the site, but you did not examine the entire site. If you had downloaded the essay, JESUS OF NAZARETH, ILLEGAL TAX PROTESTER, which is available without charge on another page of the the same site, you would have learned that Jesus did in fact have much to say about taxes and tax collectors. You might also try to do a word search for tax and its derivatives on any one of the several bible sites on the web. The essay, by the way, is the first and only comprehensive analysis on the subject of Jesus and taxes, although I understand others are now in the works.

LPC wrote,

I disagree with your interpretation of the gospels.

Danny Boy, (for an Irishman like me, that is a term of endearment, certainly not meant to demean), I went to your blog, which obviously contains your personal interpretation of words Jesus reportedly said that are recorded in the gospels. If you went to my blog, you would see that with one small exception, I do not interpret the meaning of what Jesus said, rather I have used his words as they are recorded in the gospels in support of my call for a tax boycott without interpreting them.

Rachel wrote,

"You are such an idiotic dipshit joey!"

Rachel, please don't hijack this thread by interjecting the question of state vs. us citizenship, and refrain from name calling or foul language if you want to be taken seriously by anyone. The requirements of citizenship, whether state or national, do not, in my opinion, accord with the principles for right living that Jesus enunciated.

Capt. K wrote:

Ned Netterville AND Rachel in tag team action......sans ring, audience or arena.

Capt. old salt, as I'm sure you know, I didn't invite Rachel to chip in, and I certainly do not endorse her comments here, but when you say, "sans...audience," you neglect the paramount fact that you paid the price for your own admission to my thread, for which I am grateful.

If there are any other comments on this thread which address the topic, I will respond, but I don't see any. Keep the faith boys and girls. Love ya all, Ned

[Joey Smith]

I think that it can be safely presumed that in those years before He became the Savior, Jesus paid taxes like everybody else.

The Bible is so distorted and self-contradictory in many respects that one can do as Ned does and take bits and pieces out of the abstract and make a case for nearly anything (and self-annointed "evangelical Christians" frequently do).

But that doesn't mean that Ned is right.

Jesus paid; you should too. And I still think that it is one of the worst forms of piousness for you to (1) believe that only you have the correct interpretation of the Bible; and (2) wrap your pure selfishness and greed in not paying any taxes in the Bible. What you are doing is little different from the pornographers who used to couch their movies in patriotic terms to keep from being prosecuted.

[natty]

Do what he says, give Caesar what is his, and I'll do the same, then we will both be behaving as discipiles..

When Jesus walked the Earth, Rome held Jerusalem in bondage. Jesus and everyone else paid taxes as a form of tribute to Caesar. Caesar served God's purposes.

Today, we are no longer under Caesar. Our govt is of, for and by the people. We pay taxes to pay for the cost of govt. Refusing to pay taxes today is like refusing to pay your electric bill.

Ned is wrong and is an anarchist. The Bible as a whole supports nothing he says. Not paying taxes is a theft of service.

[rachel]

I think that it can be safely presumed that in those years before He became the Savior, Jesus paid taxes like everybody else.

The Bible is so distorted and self-contradictory in many respects that one can do as Ned does and take bits and pieces out of the abstract and make a case for nearly anything (and self-annointed "evangelical Christians" frequently do).

But that doesn't mean that Ned is right.

Jesus paid; you should too. And I still think that it is one of the worst forms of piousness for you to (1) believe that only you have the correct interpretation of the Bible; and (2) wrap your pure selfishness and greed in not paying any taxes in the Bible. What you are doing is little different from the pornographers who used to couch their movies in patriotic terms to keep from being prosecuted.

And yet this self annointing dipshit calling himself joey smith injects that the bible is selfcontradicting, but can claim that Jesus paid taxes! Where?
Just recite anywhere in the Bible joey that Jesus paid taxes?
You wont because Jesus never did.
And where do you get the idea that Jesus was never a Savior before He became the Savior?
Fact is He came in the flesh and walked with us for one reason; as the Savior; the living Word!
Do you know what "Emanuel" means?
You probably dont even know what dialect "Emanuel" comes from.
Its very old.
It means "God with us".
The only pure selfishness comes from typical socialist like joey smith who are so lazy to go to work that they have to leech off others and muddy up the water for the rest and inject falseness of the Word.
And like pornographers joey smith is no different to say its patriotic to pay taxes on your labor to feed the lazy and selfish when the courts says otherwise; you have a choice of citizenship with diversity of rights, privileges and resposibilities of each.
A person standing in one citizenship is taxed while a person standing in the other citizenship is not.

[rachel]

Do what he says, give Caesar what is his, and I'll do the same, then we will both be behaving as discipiles..

When Jesus walked the Earth, Rome held Jerusalem in bondage. Jesus and everyone else paid taxes as a form of tribute to Caesar. Caesar served God's purposes.

Today, we are no longer under Caesar. Our govt is of, for and by the people. We pay taxes to pay for the cost of govt. Refusing to pay taxes today is like refusing to pay your electric bill.

Ned is wrong and is an anarchist. The Bible as a whole supports nothing he says. Not paying taxes is a theft of service.

Wrong!
Jesus never paid taxes to ceasar.
Jesus went on trial and in that trial they tried to say he gave an oath to ceasar.
Jesus only replied "you claim I made an oath to ceasar" No such claim ever came to light.
No evidence of an oath to ceasar

[rachel]

As the laws currently stand, Rachel's convictions could very well lead to her convictions.

Rachel is fre to believe in any silliness she wants, whether it is Santa Claus, the Tampa Bay Devil Rays winning a World Series, or that being the citizen of a state exempts her from federal income taxes.

However, she also has to be prepared to accept that some of her beliefs may directly contradict the law and that the contradiction could lead to serious legal repercussions that cost her time and money. Considering that no court, to the best of my knowledge, has ever sided with her argument makes her argument dubious at best and a foolhardy waste of energy at worst.

Lotsa luck Rachel, you're going to need it.

Well captain can you explain why the courts say there are two citizenships with diversity of rights, privileges and responsibilities.
And yet you claim the courts dont side with those previous court opinions.
Whats going on here?

[Judge Roy Bean]

Ned and Rachel:

My "don't care" light is flashing, and the "so what" has blinked several times.

None of your arguments have any meaningful impact on the status quo. It's nothing more than mental masturbation. You're not scoring any points in the real-world. The fact that knowledgeable people here take time to discuss the matters with you does not advance your argument.

It's akin to running into an empty room and yelling "fire!" when there is smoke in a nearby city.