Has the CtC well dried up?

[Quixote]

Has the CtC well dried up or are the lostheads getting brighter? With the exception of an offset letter dated 2/11/2008, which is almost certainly unrelated to CtC, the last "victory" happened in May, 2007. Has the IRS finally shut the CTC warriors down, or did they wise up and realize that posting evidence of their tax fraud on the internet was not too bright?

Oops, silly me. I assumed the victories were posted in order. Two or three more have squeked through. I see Pete is counting the $30 by which Doreen overpaid her frivolous return penalty as a CTC refund.

[LPC]

Speaking of CtC, I had a long interview recently with a reporter who was curious about whether the marks wise up once the guru loses in court, and we talked about the ongoing chatter on Lost Horizons.

I said I thought that there is no explicit recognition that the game is over, but there is a noticeable lack of enthusiasm and a subtle air of despair among the kool-aid drinkers who remain.

But I'm curious about the impressions of others. Maybe I'm seeing what I expect to see instead of the commitment to delusion that persists.

[Judge Roy Bean]

At some point this kind of thing has to devolve back to the 50's and 60's realm of people in little gatherings in basements, double-wides and campgrounds.

[Famspear]

LPC wrote:

Speaking of CtC, I had a long interview recently with a reporter who was curious about whether the marks wise up once the guru loses in court, and we talked about the ongoing chatter on Lost Horizons.

I said I thought that there is no explicit recognition that the game is over, but there is a noticeable lack of enthusiasm and a subtle air of despair among the kool-aid drinkers who remain.

But I'm curious about the impressions of others. Maybe I'm seeing what I expect to see instead of the commitment to delusion that persists.

I have been watching losthorizons only since May 2007, when I began reading and posting here in Quatloos. I sensed a change - I don't know if it was in the late summer of 2007 or in the fall; maybe it was at the time that PH changed the forum -- when he delivered his lecture to his minions about Cracking the Code being the sole truth, or whatever his words were. I thought maybe it was just me noticing the change right after that.

I can't put my finger on it. I think LPC's comment, "lack of enthusiasm," is the closest to what I'm sensing in the losthorizons people. Nothing I can clearly put my finger on, though.

[The Observer]

What I have noticed (and it is, admittedly, anecdotal) is the paucity of tax court cases featuring the usual shopworn arguments that we have all come to know and love. For a while there, a week didn't go by without at least 2 or 3 TPs appearing before the lawyer in black robes and getting their heads handed to them, along with a sanction. Now, you are lucky to see 2 cases in a month. I think the word has gotten out to the TP crowd that their arguments aren't going to work in a federal court.

[Imalawman]

What I have noticed (and it is, admittedly, anecdotal) is the paucity of tax court cases featuring the usual shopworn arguments that we have all come to know and love. For a while there, a week didn't go by without at least 2 or 3 TPs appearing before the lawyer in black robes and getting their heads handed to them, along with a sanction. Now, you are lucky to see 2 cases in a month. I think the word has gotten out to the TP crowd that their arguments aren't going to work in a federal court.

There has been a bit of a lull here on the state level. In fact, the last CTC return that made its way to my desk (i.e. ready to litigate) was last year some time. At least on the state level, there aren't any refunds being given out for a return with corrected w-2's or 1099 until the same has been through a preliminary audit. In fact, I advised an attorney the other day not to issue a 1099 until he was certain of it, because you don't want to have file a corrected 1099 and put yourself into the "system". It looks as though the freedom law school crowd is getting a little more active, though. I am litigating some cases right now (around 5). I am glad to see the ctc crowd go, although they were among the easiest to deal with. The whole "includes doesn't really mean includes" argument was very easy to defeat.

[webhick]

I'm getting the impression from the LH forum that they're trying to find new ways to stop the red flag from popping up. Another thing is that, from reading the forum, there's a lot of "got a notice," "got a letter," "they're threatening penalties," "their refusing to give me my money," "they lost my return," "requesting a hearing," etc. Nothing says "it doesn't work" like the chatter on LH.

Meanwhile, Janiece digs her hole deeper:

We did take steps to protect our assets and nothing of value is in our name.

[Demosthenes]

The scam has hit its natural lifecycle. The euphoria of the refunds has turned into the tedious wave of form letters and notices from the IRS. The only step left is the dozen or so indictments and convictions at which time the marks will move on to the next guru, just like they dropped Larken when he was convicted.

[grammarian44]

The "lack of enthusiasm" at CtC roughly coincides with the disappearance of its most vocal warrior, John J. Bulten.

Now that the Ron Paul race is on life support, it will be interesting to see if JJB returns to CtC. He may have discovered that backing longshot politicians is more rewarding than backing longshot legal arguments.

[Famspear]

Janiece in losthorizons wrote:

We did take steps to protect our assets and nothing of value is in our name.

Or, to put it another way, "We hereby publicly, blatantly, and foolishly admit that we have already willfully attempted in some manner to evade or defeat the payment of federal income tax, per 26 USC 7201."

[Famspear]

Check out the new thread at losthorizons, entitled:

Successful CtC'ers- please chime in

First post is on 11 March 2008, from "kilbey":

Hello all-
I have noticed that few of the people on the forum seem to have posted refunds/successful correspondence with the IRS.

This might be a good time for a reality check on the success rate of filing CtC style. I am curious as I'm sure others are about the percentage of people who file this way that get a refund or or other positive outcome from it. This is not meant to be an argument against CtC filing. The principle of the matter is very important to me as well, not just the speedy refund.

Anybody want to voluntarily comply? :O)

Any kind of testimonial would be helpful to us all- such as "I got a refund last year" or "I've been getting refunds for the past five years" or "I get a refund every other year", to any extent you wish to divulge. One certainly doesn't have to connect their forum user ID to a "victory check" submitted to LH- staying anonymous may be a good idea. I would just like to get a sense of how it's going overall. I do wonder how many unsuccessful attempts correspond to every success.

Thanks!

-Brian

[Disilloosianed]

kilbey is not long for the ways of CtC. From another thread:

Hello all-
My wife and I were going to file separately, but then she realized that she wouldn't be able to count her tuition as a deduction, and would end up owing a couple thousand due to an IRA she's been withdrawing from while out of work.

She had been aware that I was going to file post-CtC, and threw a fit unless I filed jointly with her traditionally. I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this, since I now know the "Nature of the Beast", and how the deception works. On the other hand, my wife is saying that I will be "throwing her in front of a truck" if I don't file the IRS way. I am really stuck here, as I now know that "soylent green is people" (hope you guys get the reference).

I we were to file jointly, can she still get deductions? Would I be pulling her into trouble? She would be entering her info in the traditional way, and I would file CtC, but both within the same return.

Can we have it both ways? I can't stand the thought of claiming my pay is "income". I also can't stand the thought of divorce.

I personally feel that she should not be the one to determine how I do my taxes, and have though about paying her "debt" to the IRS myself. She has said that she wants me to do everything "above-board". That's when I told her that I'm doing everything according to law, and that the gov't/IRS are the ones using loopholes and trickery. She will not read CtC, I'm sure of it.

Any thoughts? Thanks in advance- i just want to avoid drama at home.

--Brian

[Disilloosianed]

Apparently he later had her watch some CtC propaganda, but she still thought she had income. My guess is that the plea for successes is his last ditch effort to convert her.

[Imalawman]

As soon as I say that there doesn't seem to be anymore CTC returns coming through, a new file just hits my desk...they're back.....

[Dr. Caligari]

Some of them are starting to get it. From today's LH forum:

I've been doing a search on IRC 3401 and keep coming across cases that were denied because the courts refuse to look at the legal definiton of the IRC codes and instead go to the IRS definitions of "gross income"...
"'income from whatever source derived"

One of the cases I found is http://www.in.gov/legislative/iac/20070 ... RA.xml.pdf It is a state case, but it refers to the IRS in it's statements.

What about this? If it is true do we have a leg to stand on if we had to go to court?

No one has answered her yet.