Rational discussion regarding CTC starring Ducky

[Famspear]

Quixote wrote:

That is the consensus among grammarians who see language as a static system

Although I definitely cringe when I hear people use "they" instead of the more "correct" "he or she," I recognize that there is probably no such thing as a "static" language.

For some background, an excellent course on language (which I purchased and absorbed) and how language changes over time is the one sold by The Teaching Company entitled "History of the English Language," by Professor Seth Lerer at Stanford (bio here:)

http://english.stanford.edu/bio.php?name_id=76

Here's an advertisement for the course:

http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/coursedescl ... rofessor80

(I hope posting these links doesn't break some Quatloos rule; I have no financial interest in Professor Lerer's work or in The Teaching Company - it's just a great course in my opinion).

Professor Lerer is very enthusiastic about his subject, and his lecture style is top-notch in my opinion. Really good stuff.

I also cringe when I hear what I think linguists call may call "idiolectic vowel shift" - as evidenced by the tendency of some Americans to pronounce (for example) the following sentence: "I have a good job and I'm making big bucks" as "I have a good job and I'm making big BOX." -- i.e., the tendency to shift the "u" in "bucks" to something like an "ah" sound, as the "o" in "box." Lots of educated people do this. I think it's done in an effort to sound "sophisticated" except that the people who do it may not even realize that they're doing it (pronounced "bucks" as though it's "box", for example). Although it sounds grating on my ears, it's just a normal part of the development of language.

If this tendency becomes widespread, so that the pattern is followed by a large sub-group of the population, then the practice presumably ceases being called "idiolectic vowel shift" and becomes "dialectic vowel shift." And enough vowel shifts over time, with enough different vowels, might result in something like the Great Vowel Shift that occurred in English:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift

Language constantly changes, sometimes slowly, sometimes quickly.

Anyway, Professor Lerer is great.

[Dezcad]

Here's an advertisement for the course:

http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/coursedescl ... rofessor80

That looks quite interesting. One question - what verison did you purchase (DVD, CD download)? I was trying to determine whether the extra cost for the DVD was worth it or whether the audio is sufficient.

Anyway, thanks for the recommendation. I'll check it out.

[Kimokeo]

by Famspear on Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:02 pm

My personal view is that "they" as a singular sounds enormously clumsy and grating. I like "he or she" much better.

I don't know if this is analogous, but in German they use "sie" for the singular sometimes. Conjugate the verb "sein" ("to be") in the present tense:

So, "sie" can be "she" or "it" or "they" or "you".


sie is Capitalized to "Sie". It is a polite form of you, singular and plural.
Small case letter 's' for they and she.
I've never used sie for it unless I wanted to be insulting.

[Famspear]

Here's an advertisement for the course:

http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/coursedescl ... rofessor80

That looks quite interesting. One question - what verison did you purchase (DVD, CD download)? I was trying to determine whether the extra cost for the DVD was worth it or whether the audio is sufficient.

Anyway, thanks for the recommendation. I'll check it out.

I have the CD version.

[Lambkin]

sie is Capitalized to "Sie". It is a polite form of you, singular and plural.
Small case letter 's' for they and she.
I've never used sie for it unless I wanted to be insulting.

Just like in 'merican, we have youse and Youse (polite form). Which can also be singular or plural.

[jg]

The English we speak in the USA has various regional dialects and those dialects as we know them today are probably different than what they were like 100 or 200 years ago.

Sometime in the future, when we can measure objectively, it will be found that there was a significant reduction in regional differences of American English in the fifty years from 1958 to 2008. Perhaps it can be named the "Walter Cronkite effect"; as it will be shown to be a result of watching common programming on television. The affect on each one of our dialects is to reduce the differences and increase shared terminology.

[Famspear]

sie is Capitalized to "Sie". It is a polite form of you, singular and plural.
Small case letter 's' for they and she.
I've never used sie for it unless I wanted to be insulting.

Just like in 'merican, we have youse and Youse (polite form). Which can also be singular or plural.

Hmmm....in the south it is you (singular), and y'all (plural). In parts of the west and in most frats it's dude (singular) and dudes (plural)

You got that right, pardner. Ah mahself sometimes refer to a group o' gals as "dudettes." Yee-hah!

[wserra]

You got that right, pardner. Ah mahself sometimes refer to a group o' gals as "dudettes." Yee-hah!

I've posted this here before, but it's been a couple of years, and I really like the story.

Years ago, I tried a case with a lawyer from Texas. Good guy, good lawyer, we had fun. But when he first said "VOW-er DYE-er" I had no idea what he was saying. He had to explain that he was referring to the process of jury selection.

[Demosthenes]

I had the same voir dire confusion with a civil litigation attorney from Alabama. Of course, every time I pronounced the town name of Mobile, AL in front of a group of attorneys (they'd hired me as an expert witness) the whole room burst out laughing.

[Cpt Banjo]

Demo, it's a good thing you weren't in Natchitoches, Louisiana.

[Famspear]

Demo, it's a good thing you weren't in Natchitoches, Louisiana.

Natchitoches, Louisiana
Normal people would say: "nach-uh-TOH-chez" (?)
Louisiana people say: "NA-kuh-tish"

Nacogdoches, Texas
Normal people would say: "Nay-kog-DOH-chez" (?)
Texans say: "na-kuh-DOH-chez"

[Famspear]

More good ones from Louisiana:

Tchoupitoulas
"chah-puh-TOO-luss" (I think!)

Atchafalaya River (and swamp)
"ah-CHAFF-uh-LIE-yuh"

Calcasieu
"KAL-kuh-shoo"

[Leftcoaster]

You have not witnessed a true torturing of the English language until you speak to someone from the outports of Newfoundland.

Full disclosure: the pa-in-law is from the Rock, but he's a Townie

[RyanMcC]

KENTUCKY
Possum Trot
Monkey's Eyebrow

TEXAS
Kickapoo
Frognot
Hoop and Holler
Muleshoe
Uncertain
Noodle
Cut and Shoot
Ding Dong

INDIANA
French Lick

NORTH CAROLINA
Fuquay Varina
Lizard Lick

NEW MEXICO
Truth or Consequences

ARKANSAS
Bald Knob
Forty Four
Nail
Oil Trough
Smackover
Toad Suck

CONNECTICUT
Sodom
Mianus

MISSISSIPPI
Hushpuckena
Looxahoma
Wenasoga
Mashulaville
Shuqualak
Burkatunna
Hot Coffee
Panther Burn
Soso

WASHINGTON
Humptulips

ILLINOIS
Gays

ALABAMA
Smuteye
Bug Tussle
Burnt Corn

WEST VIRGINIA
Left Hand
Odd
Big Ugly
Booger Hole
Burnt House
HooHoo
Lost City
Hog Eye
Superior Bottom

MISSOURI
Peculiar

VIRGINIA
Bumpass

PENNSYLVANIA
Burnt Cabins
Black Lick
Panic
Bird in Hand
Blue Ball
Intercourse
Paradise

[Famspear]

Demo, it's a good thing you weren't in Natchitoches, Louisiana.

Natchitoches, Louisiana
Normal people would say: "nach-uh-TOH-chez" (?)
Louisiana people say: "NA-kuh-tish"

Nacogdoches, Texas
Normal people would say: "Nay-kog-DOH-chez" (?)
Texans say: "na-kuh-DOH-chez"

Actually, on Natchitoches, this is a better way to show the pronunciation:
"NAK-uh-tish"
(to be clear that it's not "NAH-kuh-tish")

And Nacogdoches is "nak-uh-DOH-chez" (just to be clear that it's not "nah-kuh-DOH-chez")

Gotta keep the "nak" and the nahk" straight, if you know what I mean.

[Famspear]

[ . . . ]

TEXAS
Kickapoo
Frognot
Hoop and Holler
Muleshoe
Uncertain
Noodle
Cut and Shoot
Ding Dong [ . . .]

On Texas, we cannot leave out the huge metropolis of "Dime Box."

[Leftcoaster]

Newfoundland

Dildo
Come by Chance
Pecker's Point

coincidence?

[grixit]

I've always learned that using the generic plural form of "they" to get around the gender awkward choice of he/she was bad grammar.

Many of us were, but only because we had ignorant teachers. That rule is not part of the english language, it's something someone made up and tried to foist on us.

It's kind of like the supposed "legal procedures" that TPs teach each other.

[grammarian44]

That rule is not part of the english language, it's something someone made up and tried to foist on us.

I would love to see a source that spells out the rules of the English language that were not made up by someone.

[The Observer]

That rule is not part of the english language, it's something someone made up and tried to foist on us.

Wait a minute...are you telling us that Demo is <shudder> an illegal grammar protestor?!!