Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

A collection of old posts from all forums. No new threads or new posts in old threads allowed. For archive use only.
SteveSy

Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by SteveSy »

Famspear wrote:
SteveSy wrote:Come on Famspear, are you going to sit there and say congress can constitutionally lay a direct tax, in this case an income tax, higher in one state than in another? For instance tax NY residents at 60% and CA at 10%? That's what you would have to admit congress has the power to do if your and Bitkker's analysis is valid. The court knew this was not the intention of congress so they scrambled to try and put the Genie back in the bottle. The only effect of the amendment was to prevent someone from resorting to the source of the income to take what was otherwise an indirect tax and place it in the category of direct taxation where it didn't belong. The truth is there would have been no need to say that if your analysis was valid, because even if it was moved it wouldn't matter nothing would change as far as congress's ability to tax anyway they saw fit.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say, Steve. Go back and read the text. Bittker is right. I am right.

On one point you raised, though: Am I saying (and is Bittker saying) that Congress lay a tax that is imposed at a higher rate in one state than in another? No, I think maybe you're confusing apportionment and uniformity. Under the rule of uniformity (i.e., geographic uniformity), Congress could not impose a valid federal income tax that says: New York residents pay the tax at 60% of taxable income, while California residents pay the tax at 10% of taxable income." Nothing in the Brushaber holdings and nothing in Bittker's writings say that you could impose an income tax like that.

By contrast, apportionment means, roughly, that the total dollar amount of tax collected from the citizens (or residents?) of each state should be in proportion to that state's population. So, if State X has 12% of the population of the United States, presumably 12% of the dollar amount of a given tax (and, presumably no more and no less) would have to come from the citizens (residents?) of that state. Obviously, for a true income tax, that would virtually never work, since the income distribution among states does not necessarily coincide with the population distribution.
You're missing the obvious...

If this is valid:
simply eliminated the requirement that an income tax, to the extent that it is a direct tax, must be apportioned among the states
Then to the extent it is direct it wouldn't require uniformity either, direct taxes by default do not require uniformity. If acceded to would allow congress to constitutionally lay a 10% tax on CA residents and a 60% tax on NY residents.
Famspear
Knight Templar of the Sacred Tax
Posts: 7668
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 12:59 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by Famspear »

SteveSy wrote:
Famspear wrote:
SteveSy wrote:Come on Famspear, are you going to sit there and say congress can constitutionally lay a direct tax, in this case an income tax, higher in one state than in another? For instance tax NY residents at 60% and CA at 10%? That's what you would have to admit congress has the power to do if your and Bitkker's analysis is valid. The court knew this was not the intention of congress so they scrambled to try and put the Genie back in the bottle. The only effect of the amendment was to prevent someone from resorting to the source of the income to take what was otherwise an indirect tax and place it in the category of direct taxation where it didn't belong. The truth is there would have been no need to say that if your analysis was valid, because even if it was moved it wouldn't matter nothing would change as far as congress's ability to tax anyway they saw fit.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say, Steve. Go back and read the text. Bittker is right. I am right.

On one point you raised, though: Am I saying (and is Bittker saying) that Congress lay a tax that is imposed at a higher rate in one state than in another? No, I think maybe you're confusing apportionment and uniformity. Under the rule of uniformity (i.e., geographic uniformity), Congress could not impose a valid federal income tax that says: New York residents pay the tax at 60% of taxable income, while California residents pay the tax at 10% of taxable income." Nothing in the Brushaber holdings and nothing in Bittker's writings say that you could impose an income tax like that.

By contrast, apportionment means, roughly, that the total dollar amount of tax collected from the citizens (or residents?) of each state should be in proportion to that state's population. So, if State X has 12% of the population of the United States, presumably 12% of the dollar amount of a given tax (and, presumably no more and no less) would have to come from the citizens (residents?) of that state. Obviously, for a true income tax, that would virtually never work, since the income distribution among states does not necessarily coincide with the population distribution.
You're missing the obvious...

If this is valid:
simply eliminated the requirement that an income tax, to the extent that it is a direct tax, must be apportioned among the states
Then to the extent it is direct it wouldn't require uniformity either, direct taxes by default do not require uniformity.
That's right. You're rehashing the ambiguity, or the "logical" inconsistency, if you will, in Brushaber. Again, recall my comment about the two lines of cases that have interpreted the Amendment (and Brushaber). On the one hand, the Amendment is being interpreted as "taking" income taxes on interest, dividends and rents "out" of the category of "direct tax" (where they had been "moved" by the Pollock case) and putting them "back" into the category of "excise" (indirect tax) where they "belonged." On the other hand, the Amendment is being interpreted as allowing an income tax on any source of income, even if that particular income tax is considered a direct tax, so that even if a particular income tax is "direct," it's still not required to be apportioned. Since a direct tax is not subject to the rule of uniformity, then under the latter interpretation you COULD have a tax that is "direct" and yet is NOT subject to either the rule of apportionment OR the rule of uniformity -- which seems to contradict what the Court said in Brushaber. There seems to be a logical inconsistency here.

YOU ARE NOT THE FIRST PERSON TO IDENTIFY THIS LOGICAL INCONSISTENCY, STEVE.

RELAX. BREATHE DEEPLY. DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT.

(I hope you can read that.)

If you were to study the texts of thousands and thousands of actual court opinions, you would find stuff like this. Lawyers are used to having to deal with this. The point is, regardless of the "illogic", you get to the same result either way: After the Sixteenth Amendment, NO FEDERAL INCOME TAX is required to be apportioned (under any of the lines of cases interpreting Brushaber).
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
Famspear
Knight Templar of the Sacred Tax
Posts: 7668
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 12:59 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by Famspear »

Steve, here is a rough summary of the holdings in Brushaber:

1. Under the Sixteenth Amendment, the federal income tax is not required to be apportioned among the states according to each state's population.

2. The federal income tax does not violate the Fifth Amendment's prohibition against the government taking property without due process of law.

3. The federal income tax does not violate the uniformity clause of Article I, section 8 of the U.S. Constitution.

Don't get too hung up on "how" and "why" the Court arrived at its conclusions in Brushaber, to the point that you lose sight of WHAT the Court decided. A court case, as precedent, is important primarily for WHAT it decides, and less so for "how" or "why" the Court came to its conclusions.

EDIT: Steve, if it helps, please note that I (and I suspect several other regulars here) can feel your pain when we recall our first semester at law school, in a contracts or torts or property law class -- analyzing case after case where courts do come to contradictory (or apparently contradictory) conclusions, or used contradictory rationale, as we learned to perform legal analysis and reconcile the conflicts.

The life of the law is not "logic." The life of the law is experience (paraphrasing O.W. Holmes).
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
SteveSy

Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by SteveSy »

Famspear wrote:That's right. You're rehashing the ambiguity, or the "logical" inconsistency, if you will, in Brushaber. Again, recall my comment about the two lines of cases that have interpreted the Amendment (and Brushaber). On the one hand, the Amendment is being interpreted as "taking" income taxes on interest, dividends and rents "out" of the category of "direct tax" (where they had been "moved" by the Pollock case) and putting them "back" into the category of "excise" (indirect tax) where they "belonged." On the other hand, the Amendment is being interpreted as allowing an income tax on any source of income, even if that particular income tax is considered a direct tax, so that even if a particular income tax is "direct," it's still not required to be apportioned. Since a direct tax is not subject to the rule of uniformity, then under the latter interpretation you COULD have a tax that is "direct" and yet is NOT subject to either the rule of apportionment OR the rule of uniformity -- which seems to contradict what the Court said in Brushaber. There seems to be a logical inconsistency here.
No logical inconsistency with the SC, the court made it clear in Brushaber. It is an erroneous assumption to conclude that as far as an income tax might be direct it doesn't require apportionment. The only reasonable way to interpret the amendment is to conclude that the taxes authorized are those of the indirect kind, requiring uniformity, and by default do not require apportionment. All direct taxes must still be apportioned and all indirect taxes must be uniform. The only real result of the amendment is to prevent someone from resorting to the source to take what was otherwise an indirect tax and placing it in the category of direct taxes where it doesn't belong.

That is consistent, reasonable and removes confusion. What you are doing is being a verbal contortionist to try and reshape what was said to fit your own conclusions and to prove Bitkker was right.
Famspear
Knight Templar of the Sacred Tax
Posts: 7668
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 12:59 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by Famspear »

SteveSy wrote:What you are doing is being a verbal contortionist to try and reshape what was said to fit your own conclusions and to prove Bitkker was right.
It's "Bittker," not "Bitkker."

No, you yourself identified the logical inconsistency. I'm agreeing with you Steve. The logical inconsistency is there. I thought you'd be happy to find out that you had actually done something right! I am agreeing with you that there is a logical contradiction in Brushaber.

The contradiction has already been discussed in other web sites. I had a discussion on a Wikipedia talk page a year or two ago about the two lines of cases interpreting Brushaber.

Stop focusing on "Bittker." I"m not trying to "prove" Bittker is correct. Bittker is correct. Period. He correctly summarized the state of the law. Sorry, but Bittker and I and the courts and just about everybody else here at Quatloos are in agreement with each other. You're the odd man out.
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
Cpt Banjo
Fretful leader of the Quat Quartet
Posts: 782
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 7:56 pm
Location: Usually between the first and twelfth frets

Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by Cpt Banjo »

Here's another law professor's take on Brushaber:
Edward White, one of the four dissenters in Pollock, had now become Chief Justice. Understandably, he reserved to himself the task of writing an opinion for a unanimous Court in which the Justices made their peace with the progressive income tax. White rightly emphasized that the original Constitution had granted the federal government plenary powers of taxation, and that the "direct tax" provision was only a limitation on the exercise of this power in a narrow class of cases. The point of the Sixteenth Amendment was not - as the bitter-enders absurdly supposed - to impose further burdens on the taxing power, but to overrule Pollock. White resoundingly rejected the notion that the Due Process Clause might be used as a new weapon against the redistributional potential of the income tax. On the level of operational reality, the Chief Justice triumphantly led his Court into a brave new world where Congress had wide discretion to pursue distributive justice through progressive taxation.

But he paid a doctrinal price for his unanimous opinion. While his dissent in Pollock, like Harlan's, had roundly denounced the majority for departing from the constitutional tradition of restraint established by Hylton, the opinion he now wrote for the Court took a gentler view of Pollock. To see the point, recall that the Pollock majority had departed from tradition in two different ways - first, by expanding the category of "direct taxes" far beyond real estate to embrace personal property such as stocks and bonds; and second, by expanding the category yet further by tracing income back to the underlying asset, and declaring that the income was "direct" if it derived from any form of property. This two- pronged expansion gave White two rhetorical alternatives as he turned to the task of writing his opinion overruling Pollock. On the one hand, he could overrule both prongs of Pollock, and firmly return the law to the Hylton tradition of restraint that had been consistently followed before 1895. On the other, he could write a narrower opinion that only overruled the second prong.

White chose the narrower course - finding that the Sixteenth Amendment had explicitly overruled Pollock's effort to trace income back to its source when it authorized Congress to tax income "from whatever source derived" - and he did so in ringing terms, decrying Pollock's "mistaken theory." Since this narrow holding was sufficient to sustain the progressive income tax, White could afford to be more charitable concerning the other great doctrinal expansion effected by Pollock - which had broadened "direct taxes" from a narrow focus on capitation and real estate to all property, including stocks and bonds. It is here where he treated the decision with a surprising gentleness. Though White had been a dissenter in Pollock, he did not declare that the case had been incorrectly decided in the first place; nor did he construe the Sixteenth Amendment as encouraging the Court to return to the traditional Hylton view that limited "direct taxes" by the rule of reason.

To the contrary, he went so far as to suggest that "at least impliedly" the Amendment actually approved Pollock's expansionary reading of the "direct tax" clauses to sweep far beyond the traditional duo of capitation and real estate taxes. As we have seen, White's suggestion was factually incorrect - indeed, the language of the Amendment had been expressly changed to eliminate any such "implication."* Since White himself had dissented from Pollock's expansion of the "direct tax" category, it is likely that he made his historically inaccurate remarks to gain the vote of more conservative Justices and thereby win a unanimous Court on the crucial issue of the day: the legitimacy of broad-ranging and progressive income taxation. If this united front could be obtained by some surprising and inaccurate, but strictly irrelevant, praise of Pollock, it was a price worth paying.

Bruce Ackerman, Taxation and the Constitution, 99 Columbia Law. Rev. 1 (1999)(footnotes omitted)
* Ackerman is referring to the fact that one of the original versions of the Amendment, introduced by a leader of the Republican conservatives, read as follows: "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect direct taxes on incomes without apportionment among the several States according to population."
This text conceded the Progressives their minimal objective by explicitly authorizing a national income tax without state apportionment. But through a clever verbalism, it aimed to transform this tactical retreat into a long-run conservative victory. To see the trick, recall that the courts had, before Pollock, included only two kinds of taxes - capitation and real estate - within the "direct" category. By calling the income tax "direct," Brown was explicitly endorsing the Pollock majority's vast expansion of the concept. If his gambit had been successful, the Sixteenth Amendment would have been Janus-faced - authorizing Congress to levy income taxes without state apportionment, but requiring apportionment for a vastly expanded group of "direct" taxes that had, previously to Pollock, been well within Congress's power to impose on a nationally uniform basis.

The gambit was not successful. Rather than accepting Brown's formulation, Senator McLaurin, speaking for the Progressive coalition, immediately rose to propose an alternative that would have utterly obliterated the concept of "direct taxation" from our constitutional law:

Mr. McLaurin. I think if the Senator from Nebraska [Brown] will change his amendment to the Constitution so as to strike out the words "and direct taxes" in clause 3, section 2, of the Constitution, and also to strike out the words "or other direct" in clause 4 of section 9 of the Constitution, he will accomplish all that his amendment proposed to accomplish and not make a constitutional amendment for the enacting of a single act of legislation.

Mr. Brown. That may be true, Mr. President; but my purpose is to confine it to income taxes alone ...

This colloquy neatly defined the polar limits of constitutional possibility as they were perceived at the time - under the progressive scenario, Congress should explicitly repudiate the very idea of "direct" taxation; under the conservative, it should explicitly embrace Pollock, carving out an exception "confined ... to income taxes alone." But in the end, Congress embraced neither extreme.

As a formal matter of parliamentary procedure, Brown's amendment served as the basis for the entire debate on the Senate floor - serving as a symbol for the dominance of conservative Congressional leadership. But the realities were quite different. Before allowing a full-scale discussion on the floor, the Senate Committee on Finance reconsidered Brown's amendment, and made a proposal of its own:

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States and without regard to any census or enumeration."

This text dominated floor debate, and ultimately became the Sixteenth Amendment. Its language represents a major retreat from Brown's conservative ambitions. Gone was his express vindication of Pollock's decision to expand the category of "direct" taxation; in its place we find an explicit repudiation of Pollock's effort to expand the category by insisting that an income tax, from whatever source derived, should be immune from the rule of apportionment.

To be sure, the amendment still did not go all the way to the complete repeal of the "direct tax" clauses - a point noted by Senator McLaurin, who, along with other Progressives, continued to assert the superiority of a head-on confrontation with the Supreme Court. But once Taft had joined forces with the Republican leadership, the Progressives recognized that they had no chance of succeeding with their statutory effort to force the Court to make a "switch in time." Now that the language of the constitutional amendment had been revised to eliminate all explicit endorsement of Pollock's reasoning, Progressives had no realistic choice but to go along. Representative Hull said it best: "I shall vote for the proposed amendment, but with the distinct understanding that I in no wise abandon my conviction that the decision in the Pollock case was wrong ...." The Sixteenth Amendment passed through Congress with overwhelming majorities - the conservatives jubilantly embracing it as a substitute for the real thing, the Progressives grimly accepting it as the best available compromise with reality.
"Run get the pitcher, get the baby some beer." Rev. Gary Davis
SteveSy

Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by SteveSy »

Famspear wrote:
SteveSy wrote:What you are doing is being a verbal contortionist to try and reshape what was said to fit your own conclusions and to prove Bitkker was right.
It's "Bittker," not "Bitkker."

No, you yourself identified the logical inconsistency. I'm agreeing with you Steve. The logical inconsistency is there. I thought you'd be happy to find out that you had actually done something right! I am agreeing with you that there is a logical contradiction in Brushaber.
It scares me when one of you say "I agree". I would like to clarify there is no "logical contradiction" in Brushaber, the contradiction lies with the lower courts and a few law professors.
The contradiction has already been discussed in other web sites. I had a discussion on a Wikipedia talk page a year or two ago about the two lines of cases interpreting Brushaber.

Stop focusing on "Bittker." I"m not trying to "prove" Bittker is correct. Bittker is correct. Period. He correctly summarized the state of the law. Sorry, but Bittker and I and the courts and just about everybody else here at Quatloos are in agreement with each other. You're the odd man out.
Lol ok...

I see so Bittker, sorry for the early misspelling, is correct because a circuit court agreed with him, not because of what the SC actually said. So now we're back to quantum law theory where two interpretations of an interpretation, opposite of each other, are both correct. Got it....

Here I'll finalize my post with the following:
The internal effects of a mutable policy are still more calamitous. It poisons the blessing of liberty itself. It will be of little avail to the people, that the laws are made by men of their own choice, if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood; if they be repealed or revised before they are promulgated, or undergo such incessant changes that no man, who knows what the law is to-day, can guess what it will be tomorrow. Law is defined to be a rule of action; but how can that be a rule, which is little known, and less fixed?

Another effect of public instability is the unreasonable advantage it gives to the sagacious, the enterprising, and the moneyed few over the industrious and uniformed mass of the people. Every new regulation concerning commerce or revenue, or in any way affecting the value of the different species of property, presents a new harvest to those who watch the change, and can trace its consequences; a harvest, reared not by themselves, but by the toils and cares of the great body of their fellow-citizens. This is a state of things in which it may be said with some truth that laws are made for the FEW, not for the MANY.

In another point of view, great injury results from an unstable government. The want of confidence in the public councils damps every useful undertaking, the success and profit of which may depend on a continuance of existing arrangements. What prudent merchant will hazard his fortunes in any new branch of commerce when he knows not but that his plans may be rendered unlawful before they can be executed? What farmer or manufacturer will lay himself out for the encouragement given to any particular cultivation or establishment, when he can have no assurance that his preparatory labors and advances will not render him a victim to an inconstant government?

In a word, no great improvement or laudable enterprise can go forward which requires the auspices of a steady system of national policy. But the most deplorable effect of all is that diminution of attachment and reverence which steals into the hearts of the people, towards a political system which betrays so many marks of infirmity, and disappoints so many of their flattering hopes. No government, any more than an individual, will long be respected without being truly respectable; nor be truly respectable, without possessing a certain portion of order and stability.
- Madison – Federalist #62
Yes, he's dead....but his words are still true today.
Famspear
Knight Templar of the Sacred Tax
Posts: 7668
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 12:59 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by Famspear »

SteveSy wrote:
so Bittker, sorry for the early misspelling, is correct because a circuit court agreed with him, not because of what the SC actually said. So now we're back to quantum law theory where two interpretations of an interpretation, opposite of each other, are both correct. Got it....
Yes, Steve, if you truly accept that, and you’re not just being sarcastic, then yes, YOU GOT IT.

The “illogic” and inconsistency is found in the implications of HOW and WHY the Court arrived at its decisions (coupled with the varying ways that subsequent courts have arrived at their decisions, and the varying ways the lower courts have viewed Brushaber).

The primary point, however, is WHAT THE COURT DECIDED. In this case, there are no internal inconsistencies in the three primary HOLDINGS in Brushaber that I listed.
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
SteveSy

Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by SteveSy »

Famspear wrote:SteveSy wrote:
so Bittker, sorry for the early misspelling, is correct because a circuit court agreed with him, not because of what the SC actually said. So now we're back to quantum law theory where two interpretations of an interpretation, opposite of each other, are both correct. Got it....
Yes, Steve, if you truly accept that, and you’re not just being sarcastic, then yes, YOU GOT IT.
I accept that you accept it and understand you think its rational. My position still hasn't changed. Such a system relating to core fundamental issues concerning a constitution is doomed to failure IMO, namely due to what Madison said. Lawyers may be fascinated and intrigued in the challenge, people involved and those observing the injustice will just get disgusted and eventually take action whether it be ignoring the laws, as those in power have interpreted them, or by force.

Maybe that's why we have the highest prison population in the world...I dunno.
Last edited by SteveSy on Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Famspear
Knight Templar of the Sacred Tax
Posts: 7668
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 12:59 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by Famspear »

SteveSy wrote:I accept that you accept it and understand you think its rational.
Actually, I don't remember saying the legal system is "rational". I don't have a strong opinion pro or con about whether the system is "rational" (in the sense that I assume you mean).
My position still hasn't changed. Such a system relating to core fundamental issues concerning a constitution is doomed to failure IMO, namely due to what Madison said. Lawyers may be fascinated and intrigued in the challenge, people involved and those observing the injustice will just get disgusted and eventually take action.
No they won't.

Just kidding. Whether I agree or not, I respect your opinion on that, Steve.
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
SteveSy

Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by SteveSy »

Famspear wrote:Just kidding. Whether I agree or not, I respect your opinion on that, Steve.
And I respect yours....oh and btw, thanks for the meaningful discussion without all of the name calling.
Famspear
Knight Templar of the Sacred Tax
Posts: 7668
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 12:59 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by Famspear »

SteveSy wrote:
Famspear wrote:Just kidding. Whether I agree or not, I respect your opinion on that, Steve.
And I respect yours....oh and btw, thanks for the meaningful discussion without all of the name calling.
And thank you.
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
Famspear
Knight Templar of the Sacred Tax
Posts: 7668
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 12:59 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by Famspear »

Also, thanks to Cpt Banjo for the Ackerman text!
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
Dr. Caligari
J.D., Miskatonic University School of Crickets
Posts: 1812
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 10:02 pm
Location: Southern California

Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by Dr. Caligari »

Even if we were to accept that premise do you believe the colonists meant to draw the direct tax clause so tightly and the indirect tax clause so loosely that what you listed above is all that we could do to avoid being taxed? Of course this avoids the fact that finding such a place to reside free of charge is nearly impossible.
The First Congress (the one with all those members of the Constitutional Convention in it) imposed a stamp tax (an excise) on deeds, meaning it was impossible to sell of give away real property without paying a tax. Not one member of Congress thought that was a "direct tax." Even then, they understood the difference between a tax on ownership and a tax on transactions. The latter is, and always has been, an indirect tax.
Dr. Caligari
(Du musst Caligari werden!)
Dr. Caligari
J.D., Miskatonic University School of Crickets
Posts: 1812
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 10:02 pm
Location: Southern California

Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by Dr. Caligari »

SteveSy wrote:No logical inconsistency with the SC, the court made it clear in Brushaber. It is an erroneous assumption to conclude that as far as an income tax might be direct it doesn't require apportionment. The only reasonable way to interpret the amendment is to conclude that the taxes authorized are those of the indirect kind, requiring uniformity, and by default do not require apportionment. All direct taxes must still be apportioned and all indirect taxes must be uniform. The only real result of the amendment is to prevent someone from resorting to the source to take what was otherwise an indirect tax and placing it in the category of direct taxes where it doesn't belong.
You almost get it Steve, but not quite. The only reasonable way to interpret the Amendment-- and the way the Supreme Court in fact interpreted it in Brushaber-- is to conclude that the 16th Amendment made all income taxes, regardless of the source of the income (whether rent, dividends, or earnongs from labor), inherently indirect taxes, meaning that they do not require apportionment but do require uniformity.

Yes, all "direct taxes" must still be apportioned, but, after the 16th Amendment, if it's an income tax, it is not direct.
Dr. Caligari
(Du musst Caligari werden!)
Cpt Banjo
Fretful leader of the Quat Quartet
Posts: 782
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 7:56 pm
Location: Usually between the first and twelfth frets

Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by Cpt Banjo »

Famspear wrote:Also, thanks to Cpt Banjo for the Ackerman text!
You're welcome. In addition to the Ackerman article, there are other fascinating ones by Professors Erik Jensen and Calvin Johnson, and the verbal sniping that goes on among these three (actually, it's an Ackerman-Johnson tag team vs. Jensen) about the direct tax clause is both entertaining and educational.
"Run get the pitcher, get the baby some beer." Rev. Gary Davis
Paul

Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by Paul »

Come on Famspear, are you going to sit there and say congress can constitutionally lay a direct tax, in this case an income tax, higher in one state than in another?
What a maroon. The constitution doesn't just allow it, it REQUIRES it. That's what apportionment of a tax on property based on census population would have to do. Or a capitation tax that has to be apportioned among the states based on census data rather than current population.
User avatar
The Observer
Further Moderator
Posts: 7559
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2003 11:48 pm
Location: Virgin Islands Gunsmith

Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by The Observer »

Nice - we just had a mushy Kum-bah-yah moment around the campfire with Stevesy and Famspear hugging and expressing their respect for each other's opinion - and now Paul has to come along and rudely submit an on-topic post that resurrects the thread.
"I could be dead wrong on this" - Irwin Schiff

"Do you realize I may even be delusional with respect to my income tax beliefs? " - Irwin Schiff
User avatar
webhick
Illuminati Obfuscation: Black Ops Div
Posts: 3994
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:41 am

Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by webhick »

"::hic:: I love you man! ::hic:: I want you to ::hic:: know that rrreally ::hic:: app ree shee ate ::hic:: your op-onyuns ::hic::"
When chosen for jury duty, tell the judge "fortune cookie says guilty" - A fortune cookie
Famspear
Knight Templar of the Sacred Tax
Posts: 7668
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 12:59 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Prof. SteveSy Gets His Due

Post by Famspear »

Now, y'all leave Steve alone! He's my buddy now.
Paul wrote:What a maroon. The constitution doesn't just allow it, it REQUIRES it. That's what apportionment of a tax on property based on census population would have to do. Or a capitation tax that has to be apportioned among the states based on census data rather than current population.
Actually, in fairness to Steve, I think he was referring to the constitutionality vel non of charging different income tax rates based on the state of residence, etc.

Y'all just don't understand Steve the way I do.

(I think I'm scarin' myself, here).
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet