Liberty Dollar continued

[SteveSy]

Considering what the notes and the coins say on them I think its obvious "both parties understand clearly what they are trading and receiving." See the example posted above of a Libby Note....I really feel sorry for you if you think they look similar enough to claim he's trying to sell these as USD.

No, what the buyers thought was that they would be able to trade these coins for purchases (with change in return in most cases) as though these coins were worth $20. That is exactly what von Nothaus told people to do with them and the several posts above attest as to that actually happening.

Yes and a lot of people did just that. Only a frigging moron would think these could be used anywhere any time. Its obvious by the wording on his site not everyone was going to take them jeesh.

No one made that claim, creating stawmen to win an argument is pretty weak. Let's try and stick to the facts.

Yes, von Nothaus did - see above.

whatever....

More stawmen. NorFed did not try to promote its currency as an investment in silver, only that it had the backing of silver. So worst case your money would always be worth something unlike the FRN that has consistenly lost value since it was created.

Again, see above. Von Nothaus directed these people to pass the Libbies as a currency by purchasing their items.

So what? It's not illegal to barter. There's companies out there right now using barter by using a card or stamps.

Nowhere did Von Nothaus tell anyone that they should advise the retailer exactly how much they paid for the Libby or that the Libby may be worth less than what was marked on the coin.

Why should they? Do you think a diamond retailer comes out sand tell you the price they paid for somethign before they give you something. When you trade something do you both come out and tell the other how much you paid the item you have for trade ....that's just retarded.

No fraud...[t]here is never a guarantee that you can exchange those for actual U.S. dollars if a business refuses to take them. Trade is only good if two or more parties take your item no matter what the value. People were trading these things and as far as I know no one has made a criminal complaint about being duped and no banks received any.

Except as you can see above, there were several instances of fraud or attempted fraud by people submitting these coins in lieu of FRNs for purchases.

So what? I'm sure people use crap all the time to commit fraud is that the responsibility of the company making the item?

Would you care to explain to me how many of these guys told the merchants what the real deal was regarding these Libbies were?

Real deal? You mean like what NorFed posted on their site to tell merchants?

Maybe you would like to explain why local police were getting involved? I guess those merchants just didn't understand what a great deal they were getting.

Because the people using them didn't follow the rules, that's why.

And as usual, you were wrong again.

As usual you just make assertions and mix unrelated things to come up with your next grand conspiracy.

[Demosthenes]

From the opinion in the Martinez civil suit against NORFED:

FACTUAL BACKGROUND

Plaintiffs allege that defendant Bernard Von NotHaus or NORFED sold to plaintiffs minted 99.9 fine one-ounce silver "coins" (Liberty Dollars) denominated at a $10 value. Plaintiffs further allege that NORFED actively advertised that the minted silver pieces are legal to possess and pass to others in exchange for a $10 value of merchandise and/or services, and are redeemable for Federal Reserve Notes at face value of $10.

On July 17, 2002, plaintiff Michael Martinez offered a Liberty Dollar to defendant Lawson at the Tower Records store in Beaverton, Oregon. The Liberty Dollar was accepted by Lawson as payment for a compact disc. Martinez then left Tower Records with his father, co-plaintiff Julian Tavera. Shortly thereafter, defendant Joseph Elwood Fontenot, Loss Prevention Officer for Tower Records detained and handcuffed Martinez. Fontenot took Martinez into the Tower Records Security Office. Fontenot telephoned the Beaverton Police Department and defendant Officer J. Pettit arrived and questioned Martinez. Martinez was arrested and is being prosecuted in state court. Plaintiffs bring this suit alleging violation of constitutional rights, breach of contract, false imprisonment, unlawful discrimination, emotional distress, and violation of civil rights under 42 § 1983.

[Demosthenes]

Only a frigging moron would think these could be used anywhere any time.

Good description of Von Nothous' target market.

Here's how VN described Martinez, the Liberty Dollar client who tried to pass his silver coin at Tower Records:

9. Incident of the Month

They say you're not truly successful in business until you've been sued.

We have learned that in July 2002 an individual about 17 years of age, said to be retarded, went into a Tower Records store in Oregon, bought a CD with a Silver Liberty and ran into trouble, perhaps arisingfrom his own behavior. We are informed that the young man, now 18 years of age, and his father orguardian, both apparently unemployed and living in or around Seattle, have filed a civil suit against ahuge number of entities and people, including, among others, NORFED, an Oregon County, the Stateof Oregon, an Oregon City and its Police Department and the Federal Reserve - a confused collectionof allegations about civil rights and other subjects against various governmental, corporate andindividual defendants which otherwise may not have anything material in common with one another.

Crazy? Yes! Expensive? Yes, for the taxpayers who support the judicial system and all thosegovernment and public employee defendants - and for NORFED, too, the more so if it turns outNORFED must defend the case.

Truly, lots of American litigation is out of control.

[Demosthenes]

Because the people using them didn't follow the rules, that's why.

The "rules" were to drop the coin in the vendor's and then not say a single word. The "rules" also advised LD buyers to mix LDs and FRNs when possible as payment.

[SteveSy]

From the opinion in the Martinez civil suit against NORFED:

FACTUAL BACKGROUND

Plaintiffs allege that defendant Bernard Von NotHaus or NORFED sold to plaintiffs minted 99.9 fine one-ounce silver "coins" (Liberty Dollars) denominated at a $10 value. Plaintiffs further allege that NORFED actively advertised that the minted silver pieces are legal to possess and pass to others in exchange for a $10 value of merchandise and/or services, and are redeemable for Federal Reserve Notes at face value of $10.

This is really old....

They are "minted silver pieces are legal to possess and pass to others in exchange for a $10 value of merchandise and/or services" No where on his site does it say "and are redeemable for Federal Reserve Notes at face value of $10".

I'll tell you what.....give me all those worthless year 2000 liberty coins and I'll gladly pay you the face value. Send as many as you like I'll buy them all at the face value in FRN's.

[Demosthenes]

Steve, why did Von Nothaus stamp "$20" on his coins? Why not just stamp "1 ounce"?

[cynicalflyer]

If you cannot tell the difference between stolen and lawfully seized under a search warrant, you really are thick.

No, it's just Steve's hubris getting in the way of him admitting that he is on the wrong side of the argument. You would be amazed at all the ridiculous claims and assertions that Stevesy has made over the years here.

I was a lurker for a long time and have seen it, but did not fully believe it until he read right past things I posted because they get in the way of his ebil gubement delusions.

Sad. Funny sometimes. But mostly just sad.

[webhick]

They are "minted silver pieces are legal to possess and pass to others in exchange for a $10 value of merchandise and/or services" No where on his site does it say "and are redeemable for Federal Reserve Notes at face value of $10".

While I couldn't find that exact phrase, I did find the following in passing while looking up other stuff:

e. Don't hesitate to buy them back!

No matter how well your employees explain the new money, there will always be the occasional dissatisfied customer! Anytime one of your customers comes back and insists that you take back the Liberty Dollars he got from you, do so with a smile! You'll find that he will soon return and spend one he got from someone else, as the Liberty Dollar becomes more widely known in your community.

The important point is to make sure that anyone who wants to get his US dollars back can do so with a smile because for every customer who is dissatisfied with the new money, you'll find that you'll gain hundreds of customers who will be pleased and excited by them! The number of Happy customers will inevitably grow as long as you always buy them back with a smile!

Source: http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/get-sta ... ndbook.htm

"Buying back" may be synonymous with "redeem" in this case.

Also, it appears that they used to "exchange" LDs into USDs at one point, but again, not the same exact phrasing (emphasis mine):

We Currently are NOT Exchanging into USD.

In the future we plan on offering this service again.

Source: http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/faqs/convertibility.htm

[webhick]

I don't know about anyone else, but I sometimes get a little confused on LD's site by it frequently using "Liberty Dollar" to refer to the coins AND the warehouse receipts. It's sometimes really hard to tell which one he's referring to. I sometimes have to read ahead several paragraphs to figure out which one he's talking about.

[Demosthenes]

From the Norfed front page:

Works Just Like US Dollars

The important "unit of accounting" of the Liberty Dollar is exactly the same as the US dollar so it functions dollar-for-dollar with the current Federal Reserve Note (US dollar) and makes it very easy for merchants and customers to use it.

[SteveSy]

Steve, why did Von Nothaus stamp "$20" on his coins? Why not just stamp "1 ounce"?

Because they were meant for trade, its much easier to work with numbers than say "I'll trade this one ounce of silver for merchandise. They are $20 in private currency.

[SteveSy]

From the Norfed front page:

Works Just Like US Dollars

And??

Barter works just like US dollars what's your point exactly?

The important "unit of accounting" of the Liberty Dollar is exactly the same as the US dollar so it functions dollar-for-dollar with the current Federal Reserve Note (US dollar) and makes it very easy for merchants and customers to use it.

And?
http://www.merchantsbarter.com/howMBEworks.htm
MBE's work the same exact way in that respect, your point?

[SteveSy]

e. Don't hesitate to buy them back!

No matter how well your employees explain the new money, there will always be the occasional dissatisfied customer! Anytime one of your customers comes back and insists that you take back the Liberty Dollars he got from you, do so with a smile! You'll find that he will soon return and spend one he got from someone else, as the Liberty Dollar becomes more widely known in your community.

The important point is to make sure that anyone who wants to get his US dollars back can do so with a smile because for every customer who is dissatisfied with the new money, you'll find that you'll gain hundreds of customers who will be pleased and excited by them! The number of Happy customers will inevitably grow as long as you always buy them back with a smile!

Source: http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/get-sta ... ndbook.htm

"Buying back" may be synonymous with "redeem" in this case.

Come on what a major stretch, that's obviously a suggestion and not an offer. I sometimes give money back if people are dissatisfied also, doesn't mean I'm required to do so or that I will always do it. My services and materials are never redeemable after receipt of them for FRN's.

Best buy frequently refunds money for merchandise. Try and go to Best buy 60 days after you bought something and tell them "refund" is synonymous with "redeem", please redeem this product for FRN's please.

btw, the above only proves more that he didn't try to get people to screw other people. I'm sure the reason he isn't doing it anymore is due to the fact that the government stole all the bullion that backed the currency, he can't even sell the reserves.

[fortinbras]

The "dollar for dollar" is a scam. Von NotHaus's funny money is grossly overpriced for its metallic content (the new copper $1 coin contains a whopping 21¢ worth of metal). It was selling its silver coin for $10 in FRNs when the metallic content was worth only $6; Everett v. Lay (Wash.App. Aug. 8, 2006) 2006 Wash.App. LEXIS 1695. Bids or payments in von NotHaus's funny money are considered inadequate consideration; Everett, op.cit., Goble v. State (Ind.App. Feb. 8, 2002) 766 N.E.2d 1.

Von NotHaus's funny money has absolutely nothing to fall back on, except the market value of its metallic ingredient. Since the stamping of these coins is not protected or governed by law -- and since von NotHaus recently announced that his methods are slipshod -- ultimately a transaction involving his funny money depends on the intended recipient's credulity. If the von NotHaus coin is of the weight and purity as advertised, its actual metallic value is about half the amount stamped on the coin and any sensible person would accept it only if it were deeply discounted. Since the weight and purity is not guaranteed by law, an intended recipient, if he has sense, will insist on discounting it even further than half.

[SteveSy]

The "dollar for dollar" is a scam. Von NotHaus's funny money is grossly overpriced for its metallic content (the new copper $1 coin contains a whopping 21¢ worth of metal).

Then by all means collect as many year 2000 coins and sell them to me for face value in FRN's. I'll take care of as many as you can get your little hands on.

It was selling its silver coin for $10 in FRNs when the metallic content was worth only $6; Everett v. Lay (Wash.App. Aug. 8, 2006) 2006 Wash.App. LEXIS 1695. Bids or payments in von NotHaus's funny money are considered inadequate consideration; Everett, op.cit., Goble v. State (Ind.App. Feb. 8, 2002) 766 N.E.2d 1.

I'll extend my offer to them also. In fact I'll take those very coins they were complaining about, I'll even pay shipping.

Exactly what was the metal content worth for a quarter or the newly minted U.S. dollar? Once you get that come back and we'll compare.

Von NotHaus's funny money has absolutely nothing to fall back on, except the market value of its metallic ingredient.

Exactly what do you have to "fall back on" with the U.S. dollar as it looses value? Oh that's right the good faith and credit of the U.S. as your dollars become more and more useless.

You might be able to melt a U.S. minted dollar down to about 3 cents if you're lucky. Maybe we should also mention that the Federal Reserve pays a cool nickel for any denomination of U.S. currency. Maybe that the fact that people have lost a crap load of money in banks even if they stuck in a million in FRN's they can only get back 100k if the bank shuts down. What about their inadequate reserves? Oh that's right its ok when then do it on a massive scale because they told you it was ok....lol

[Demosthenes]

The new Silver Certificates fit in the cash register and function on a 1 to 1 basis with the Federal Reserve Notes so they are easy for businesses to use.

[SteveSy]

The new Silver Certificates fit in the cash register and function on a 1 to 1 basis with the Federal Reserve Notes so they are easy for businesses to use.

And?

So what?

[Demosthenes]

The NORFED site:

How to Use The Liberty Dollar

Thousands of people are spending The Liberty Dollar all over America, and you can too. All you need are a few tips, which you'll find below.

Although prudence would seem to indicate that people would refuse a currency they've never seen, this simply is not the case. Yes, you might think that a shopkeeper would be leery of giving out his merchandise for a strange piece of paper, but after thousands of Liberty Dollar transactions, we can tell you that many, even most, will accept it readily.

Here's the secret: don't try to educate people when you offer The Liberty Dollar in commerce. Your success with the currency is directly dependent upon how you offer it.

[Evil Squirrel Overlord]

Then by all means collect as many year 2000 coins and sell them to me for face value in FRN's. I'll take care of as many as you can get your little hands on.

See even you are not as dumb as to buy them from NORFED. Why won't you buy 21¢ worth of copper for $1?

[SteveSy]

Then by all means collect as many year 2000 coins and sell them to me for face value in FRN's. I'll take care of as many as you can get your little hands on.

See even you are not as dumb as to buy them from NORFED. Why won't you buy 21¢ worth of copper for $1?

To be honest I don't care what the content is, if I did I certainly wouldn't be taking FRN's. What matters is who is willing to take them. I would gladly take them if I knew others were taking them, why wouldn't I? I can see just in the last few years that if I had any of the coins hanging around I would have actually made money by accepting them.

Exactly why would you work to receive a slug worth about 3/100 of its face value in metal? If the bank hands you one of those new $1 coins that's what you're getting, you're stupid enough to take that, why do you?



I think the Fed knew this could potentially be a nightmare for them especially if the price of precious metals continued to rise. Why wouldn't people move to an alternative that was somewhat protected against high inflation and the government's irresponsible spending and its bad monetary polices. I mean who really cares what they contain as long as the businesses down the road that has what they want takes them that's all that really matters. People don't care what color their money is or even who prints it and long as its exchangeable that's what matters.