Ex-ctc'er to CtCer's

rachel

Ex-ctc'er to CtCer's

Post by rachel »

I'm not a CtCer, but I thought that would get your attention to read what Pete Hendrickson has not told you about section 3401(a)!
Pete's belief, which you are a victum of, is that section 3401(a) "wages" is limited to government employee's and the like "same class or kind" employee.
Unfortunately, this illogical belief is provably wrong by actually reading section 3401(a) completely and comprehensively.
Section 3401(a) itself contradicts Petes theory that 3401(a) is limited to like class or kind "government employee's".
What I mean is understand the construction of section 3401(a).
Section 3401(a) is written mainly to tell you what is not 3401(a) wages for the imposition of the income tax at section 1. Section 3401(a) goes into more detail about what is not 3401(a) "wages" than what is 3401(a) "wages".
Where Pete goes terribly wrong (I have strong reason to beleive its intentional because Pete knows what I'm about to tell you) is that Pete stopped at 3401(a) and doesnt continue to intergrate 3401(a)(1) through 3401(a)(22) into CtC's master plan theory that 3401(c) "employee" is limited to government like kind or class employee.
There are 22 exclusions in section 3401(a) explaining what is not subject to the section 1 income tax.
17 of these 22 exclusions deal with a combination of 3121(a) "wages" and 3121(b) "employment" for Social Security purposes.
1 exclusion has been repealed.
2 exclusions deal directly with government employee's. (wow! only 2 which doesnt give much creditability to Pete)
2 other exclusions deal with gross income from trust funds.
Pete's real 800 pound gorilla problem is to prove everyday common workers are not included as earning 3401(a) "wages" because section 3401(a) has 17 exclusions based on chapter 21 Social Security and 2 from trusts.
PETE DOESN'T KNOW WHAT HES TALKING ABOUT WHEN IT COMES TO "EMPLOYEE" WHICH OBVIOUSLY THE LAW PROVES AND THE COURTS AGREE!

Pete leads his readers to believe that 3401(a) is a seperate wage from 3121(a), so why are there 17 exclusions to 3401(a) "wages" based on chapter 21's "employment" and two exclusions based on trusts which have nothing to do with federal employee's.
So why is Pete telling you something totally opposite and untrue?

You CtCer's who are denying yourself the truth and the rule of law are included as a 3401(c) "employee" because the 3401(c) "employee" is based on what is or what is not 3401(a) "wages".
If you have a ssn you are involved in 3121(b) "employment" and make 3121(a) "wages" the only way you would not make 3401(a) "wages" would be to fall within the exclusions found between 3401(a)(1) through 3401(a)(22).
Well you can argue all you want with the definitions to chapter 21 to try and prove your point, but that will not work either because "American Employer" is any individual of the United States, including you!

Code: Select all

(h) American employer 
For purposes of this chapter, the term “American employer” means an employer which is— 
(1) the United States or any instrumentality thereof, 
[u][b](2) an individual who is a resident of the United States, [/b][/u]
(3) a partnership, if two-thirds or more of the partners are residents of the United States, 
(4) a trust, if all of the trustees are residents of the United States, or 
(5) a corporation organized under the laws of the United States or of any State. 
You cannot argue the definition of "state" or the "United States" either because Pete hasn't told you that each and every state of the union has defined itself in its civil codes the same as chapter 21.
Maybe you should try and confirm those civil law state code definitions before Pete gets you to beleive they do not apply to you.

Code: Select all

(e) State, United States, and citizen 
For purposes of this chapter— 
(1) State 
The term “State” includes the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, Guam, and American Samoa. 
(2) United States 
The term “United States” when used in a geographical sense includes the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, Guam, and American Samoa. 
You are going to have to rethink everything you were ever taught by Pete as the truth to the rule of law before you go the way he currently is facing.
I'll tell you now like I said a long time ago. Pete will be put in prison!
rachel

Re: Ex-ctc'er to CtCer's

Post by rachel »

Weston,
Please!
The reason I have posted on Quatloos is to try contacting those posting on Losthorizons. I do not have your email address, so posting here on Quatloos was the only viable way I could reach you and other CtCer’s. Pete had banned me within three weeks of first posting on Losthorizons because as he put it "you didn’t read CtC". But on the contrary, I read CtC three times and still couldn't comprehend the conceptual logic behind “Cracking the Code”.
In all practicality, CtC's base premise is the idea that it’s a "government employee" that section 3401(c) "employee" is defining that earns 3401(a) "wages". This limited CtC "government employee" premise gets it concept around the term "includes" from section 7701.
Pete's belief doesn't make logical sense because he does not take into effect that within the same 3401(a) section he is claiming is limited to government employee’s there are 17 of a total of 22 exclusions to chapter 24’s 3401(a) "wages" that are directly related to a combination of either 3121(a) "wages" and 3121(b) "employment" from chapter 21.
Now, if Pete was correct in saying that 3401(c) "employee" meant only government employee's then by reasoning chapter 21's Social Security 3121(a) "wages" and 3121(b) "employment" should not be a factor when deciding what is and what is not chapter 24’s 3401(a) "wages".
But the truth to the matter is the law, in the statutory construction itself, says 3121(a) "wages" and 3121(b) "employment" do have a proactive effect in deciding what is or is not 3401(a) “wages”.
This has proved devastating to Pete's CtC premise because the resulting influences or effects of 3121(a)"wages" and 3121(b) "employment" on 3401(a) "wages" changes the outcome of defining who 3401(c) "employee's" are.
The courts have ruled that 3401(a) include private sector individuals and in Petes case the court ruled against Pete to repay the refunds because he had “income”. Why?
Because the very existence of 3121(a) “wages” and 3121(b) “employment” exclusions in 3401(a) “wages” has a broadening effect on 3401(c) “employee” to include every individual who is 3121(b) employed for Social Security purposes, except of course, the listed 3401(a) labor exclusions of 3121(b) “employment” and pay exclusions for 3121(a) “wages”.
The term “includes” in the case of 3401(a) “wages” is in the nature of expansive on the bases that 3401(a) is including all private sector labor except the statutory exclusions of Social Security.
Common sense concludes that if 3121(a) “wages” and 3121(b) “employment” were not related or included in 3401(a) to begin with then the statutory exclusions of the chapter 21 would not be listed in chapter 24’s 3401(a) “wages”. That is simply elementary logic!
In summary, the 3401(c) “employee” includes federal and state employee’s as well as common private sector individuals who are statutorily “employed” for earning quarterly credits towards the benefits of Social Security for the implication of the section 1 income tax.
Like I said, section 3401(a) itself proves Hendrickson’s CtC theory is false and inaccurate.
Pete is no more a bonifide "federal employee" than the moon is made out of cheese.
However, Pete is statutorily 3121(b) "employed" in the private sector earning quarterly 3121(a) "wages" credits for the purpose of receiving Social Security benefits, so one of three things has to happen for Pete to beat prison time.

1. Unless Pete can prove he is not under any authority to file a W4 which converts his pay into statutory 3121(a) "wages", he is going to prison.
2. Or unless Pete can prove he is in no way associated with a ssn that converts labor into 3121(b) "employment", he is going to prison.
3. A combination of both 1 and 2.
Besides these three options Pete has no standing because he does not work for the government to argueing he is not a federal employee is just playing semantics with the court.
Last edited by rachel on Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Imalawman
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Re: Ex-ctc'er to CtCer's

Post by Imalawman »

Of course, listening to Rachel would get you into another pot of trouble. Rachel, you are free to post, but you're on a short leash peddling your version of the law which is equally wrong.
"Some people are like Slinkies ... not really good for anything, but you can't help smiling when you see one tumble down the stairs" - Unknown
rachel

Re: Ex-ctc'er to CtCer's

Post by rachel »

Imalawman wrote:Of course, listening to Rachel would get you into another pot of trouble. Rachel, you are free to post, but you're on a short leash peddling your version of the law which is equally wrong.
Really!
Just identify what it is I'm peddling because now you sound like you might agree with Hendrickson theory?
Show me where I'm not agreeing with the law or a court case on the matter?

Which is it?
1. Hendricksons theory
2. The law and court cases
3. Or your version?
Last edited by rachel on Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:39 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Ex-ctc'er to CtCer's

Post by Imalawman »

CaptainKickback wrote:Aren't we "enabling" them to continue their vicious co-dependent shame spiral?
Yeah, I'm not going for the bait. We've been down this road before.
"Some people are like Slinkies ... not really good for anything, but you can't help smiling when you see one tumble down the stairs" - Unknown
dude101

Re: Ex-ctc'er to CtCer's

Post by dude101 »

This ridiculous analysis of section 3401(a) is a prime example of you cowards on Quatloos getting it wrong on purpose. Of course Pete deals with section 3401(a) - all of it.

The key to all of this is the definition of "employee" and the inclusion/exclusion rule of law.

It is not more complicated than this - section 3401(c) defines "employee" as only including 'an officer, employee, or elected official of the United States, a State, or any political subdivision thereof, or the District of Columbia, or any agency or instrumentality of any one or more of the foregoing. The term “employee” also includes an officer of a corporation.'

Any of the definitions of taxable "employees" that are delineated in the preceding "wages" section of 3401(a) rest on this definition. Only remunerations to "employees" as defined in (c) are "wages" as defined in (a). Only such payments are taxable.

There is no argument that the mendacious Quatloos folks or the IRS green meanies can advance that will contradict the truth of this.

QED. Scott

PS - Here is why the word "includes" here is so important:

The basic legal principle of "Inclusio unius est exclusio alterius", (The inclusion of one is the exclusion of another. The certain designation of one person is an absolute exclusion of all others. ... This doctrine decrees that where law expressly describes [a] particular situation to which it shall apply, an irrefutable inference must be drawn that what is omitted or excluded was intended to be omitted or excluded, Black's Law Dictionary, 6th edition)

Additionally these court cases highlight the point further:

United States Supreme Court's instructions in American Banana Co. v. United Fruit Co., 213 U.S. 347 (1909) that,

"Words having universal scope, such as 'every contract in restraint of trade,' 'every person who shall monopolize,' etc., will be taken, as a matter of course, to mean only everyone subject to such legislation, not all that the legislator subsequently may be able to catch.”

And in Gould v. Gould, 245 U.S. 151 (1917) that,

"In the interpretation of statutes levying taxes it is the established rule not to extend their provisions, by implication, beyond the clear import of the language used, or to enlarge their operations so as to embrace matters not specifically pointed out. In case of doubt they are construed most strongly against the government, and in favor of the citizen."

Only those classes of people included in the definition are (guess what!), included in the definition! Wow what a concept! WAKE THE HELL UP AND STOP LYING!
rachel

Re: Ex-ctc'er to CtCer's

Post by rachel »

Imalawman wrote:
CaptainKickback wrote:Aren't we "enabling" them to continue their vicious co-dependent shame spiral?
Yeah, I'm not going for the bait. We've been down this road before.
Translated as:
"I'm a chicken shyt"!
dude101

Re: Ex-ctc'er to CtCer's

Post by dude101 »

interesting how all the Quatloos criticism is invective and not one bit of analysis or reason...you folks really are shills for the oligarchy...enjoy your slimes as your times are soon to end!
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Re: Ex-ctc'er to CtCer's

Post by Arthur Rubin »

dude101 wrote:This ridiculous analysis of section 3401(a) is a prime example of you cowards on Quatloos getting it wrong on purpose. Of course Pete deals with section 3401(a) - all of it.

The key to all of this is the definition of "employee" and the inclusion/exclusion rule of law.

It is not more complicated than this - section 3401(c) defines "employee" as only including 'an officer, employee, or elected official of the United States, a State, or any political subdivision thereof, or the District of Columbia, or any agency or instrumentality of any one or more of the foregoing. The term “employee” also includes an officer of a corporation.'
Where did "only" come from? Your imagination? It certainly didn't come from the law. And, to short-circuit the rest of your idiocy, see title 26 section 7701(c)
The terms “includes” and “including” when used in a definition contained in this title shall not be deemed to exclude other things otherwise within the meaning of the term defined.
Arthur Rubin, unemployed tax preparer and aerospace engineer
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dude101

Re: Ex-ctc'er to CtCer's

Post by dude101 »

Legal principles apply accross the board - there is not a separation of case law such that their is a special playing field for the IRS and Treasury...

They may like to think so and pretend that they are in a differnent sandbox, but they are still in the same sand as the rest of the system. That's the point of challenging them as we do.

ASS
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Re: Ex-ctc'er to CtCer's

Post by Gregg »

Arthur Rubin wrote:
dude101 wrote:This ridiculous analysis of section 3401(a) is a prime example of you cowards on Quatloos getting it wrong on purpose. Of course Pete deals with section 3401(a) - all of it.

The key to all of this is the definition of "employee" and the inclusion/exclusion rule of law.

It is not more complicated than this - section 3401(c) defines "employee" as only including 'an officer, employee, or elected official of the United States, a State, or any political subdivision thereof, or the District of Columbia, or any agency or instrumentality of any one or more of the foregoing. The term “employee” also includes an officer of a corporation.'
Where did "only" come from? Your imagination? It certainly didn't come from the law. And, to short-circuit the rest of your idiocy, see title 26 section 7701(c)
The terms “includes” and “including” when used in a definition contained in this title shall not be deemed to exclude other things otherwise within the meaning of the term defined.

oh, that's gonna leave a scar!
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Red Cedar PM
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Re: Ex-ctc'er to CtCer's

Post by Red Cedar PM »

Dude - first off, Rachel is a troll. She does not speak for the majority here. Second off, if you take the CtC position into court you will lose and probably face major civil and potentially criminal penalties. There are volumes of case law on this very subject on Dan's FAQ.
dude101 wrote: It is not more complicated than this - section 3401(c) defines "employee" as only including 'an officer, employee, or elected official of the United States, a State, or any political subdivision thereof, or the District of Columbia, or any agency or instrumentality of any one or more of the foregoing. The term “employee” also includes an officer of a corporation.'
3401(c) EMPLOYEE. --

For purposes of this chapter, the term "employee" includes an officer, employee, or elected official of the United States, a State, or any political subdivision thereof, or the District of Columbia, or any agency or instrumentality of any one or more of the foregoing. The term "employee" also includes an officer of a corporation.
Hmm... I don't see the word "only" anywhere in there, bub. Clutch for straws somewhere else.
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Grixit wrote:Hey Diller: forget terms like "wages", "income", "derived from", "received", etc. If you did something, and got paid for it, you owe tax.
dude101

Re: Ex-ctc'er to CtCer's

Post by dude101 »

Arthur Rubin wrote:Where did "only" come from? Your imagination? It certainly didn't come from the law. And, to short-circuit the rest of your idiocy, see title 26 section 7701(c)
The terms “includes” and “including” when used in a definition contained in this title shall not be deemed to exclude other things otherwise within the meaning of the term defined.
Again, this is a legal class being defined. Legally the reference in 7701 deals with the universe of Federal "employees" since that is the term being defined.
Last edited by dude101 on Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Red Cedar PM
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Re: Ex-ctc'er to CtCer's

Post by Red Cedar PM »

dude101 wrote:
Where did "only" come from? Your imagination? It certainly didn't come from the law. And, to short-circuit the rest of your idiocy, see title 26 section 7701(c)
The terms “includes” and “including” when used in a definition contained in this title shall not be deemed to exclude other things otherwise within the meaning of the term defined.
Again, this is a legal class being defined. Legally the reference in 7701 deals with the universe of Federal "employees" since that is the term being defined.
The term "legal class" does not appear anywhere in Title 26. Maybe you need to take a few legal classes.
ASS
Classy.
"Pride cometh before thy fall."

--Dantonio 11:03:07
Grixit wrote:Hey Diller: forget terms like "wages", "income", "derived from", "received", etc. If you did something, and got paid for it, you owe tax.
dude101

Re: Ex-ctc'er to CtCer's

Post by dude101 »

I never put the word only in the quote, ass. It is what "includes" means is any legal arena.

Tax law, anti-trust law, family law....
dude101

Re: Ex-ctc'er to CtCer's

Post by dude101 »

The term "legal class" does not appear anywhere in Title 26. Maybe you need to take a few legal classes.
ASS
Classy.[/quote]

The word ass doesn't appear anywhere in USC 26 either - I guess that means you don't pay taxes!
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Re: Ex-ctc'er to CtCer's

Post by Red Cedar PM »

dude101 wrote:I never put the word only in the quote, ass. It is what "includes" means is any legal arena.

Tax law, anti-trust law, family law....
Then you should be more than able to provide a citation to a court case involving tax law where what you claim is vindicated.
"Pride cometh before thy fall."

--Dantonio 11:03:07
Grixit wrote:Hey Diller: forget terms like "wages", "income", "derived from", "received", etc. If you did something, and got paid for it, you owe tax.
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Re: Ex-ctc'er to CtCer's

Post by . »

Classic. A thread started by one ridiculous troll is hijacked by another ridiculous troll.
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dude101

Re: Ex-ctc'er to CtCer's

Post by dude101 »

Then you should be more than able to provide a citation to a court case involving tax law where what you claim is vindicated.[/quote]

I did in the same post - again, you guys just love to get it wrong on purpose.
Willful ignorance. WOW, what a concept.

And in Gould v. Gould, 245 U.S. 151 (1917) that,

"In the interpretation of statutes levying taxes it is the established rule not to extend their provisions, by implication, beyond the clear import of the language used, or to enlarge their operations so as to embrace matters not specifically pointed out. In case of doubt they are construed most strongly against the government, and in favor of the citizen."
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Re: Ex-ctc'er to CtCer's

Post by Cpt Banjo »

dude101 wrote:Legally the reference in 7701 deals with the universe of Federal "employees" since that is the term being defined.
You're confused, son. The term being defined is "employee", and Section 7701(c) tells you that the use of the word "includes" in the definition of "employee" does not mean that people normally within the meaning of that word (e.g., private sector workers) are excluded. So it follows that it's incorrect to say that "employee" means only federal workers, etc.

Here's what a court had to say about your argument:
The other jury instructions proffered by the defendant are equally inane. Thus we hold that the district court did not err in refusing the other instruction offered by Latham implying that 26 U.S.C. § 7343 defining "person" does not include natural persons. Similarly, Latham's instruction which indicated that under 26 U.S.C. § 3401(c) the category of "employee" does not include privately employed wage earners is a preposterous reading of the statute. It is obvious that within the context of both statutes the word "includes" is a term of enlargement not of limitation, and the reference to certain entities or categories is not intended to exclude all others." U.S. v. Latham, 754 F. 2d 747 (7th Cir. 1984)
At this rate, you'll end up making Weston White look like a member of Mensa.
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