Aaron Russo (Continued)

[ShadesOfKnight]

The other camp is rich with people who make nice salaries, have nice homes, lead productive lives, aren't in prison and are helping make a positive contribution to society.

Bonus - non-"TPs" actually have senses of humor and get hotter chicks.

The upper-middle class and above (primarily the folk you mention in the "other camp") also pay less in total taxes, as a percentage of their income, and can afford powerful lawyers and CPAs to protect their income "legally." So it's not unreasonable that those in the former camp (who are predominantly middle or lower class folk) would seek a way to similarly minimize their losses... and lacking the aforementioned income to pay for lawyers and CPAs, these folk have to do it themselves...

Which of course, brings me to my point about simplicity and it's importance.

And the bonus claim is totally baseless.

[Prof]

The other camp is rich with people who make nice salaries, have nice homes, lead productive lives, aren't in prison and are helping make a positive contribution to society.

Bonus - non-"TPs" actually have senses of humor and get hotter chicks.

The upper-middle class and above (primarily the folk you mention in the "other camp") also pay less in total taxes, as a percentage of their income, and can afford powerful lawyers and CPAs to protect their income "legally." So it's not unreasonable that those in the former camp (who are predominantly middle or lower class folk) would seek a way to similarly minimize their losses... and lacking the aforementioned income to pay for lawyers and CPAs, these folk have to do it themselves...

Which of course, brings me to my point about simplicity and it's importance.

And the bonus claim is totally baseless.

This is sophistry. Rich folks generally pay the majority of all income taxes. Here, you need to check your facts. Poor people actually pay very little. The income tax also sits most unfairly on the middle class. You will lfind, however, that almost all tax protestors are actually not even in the middle class -- most are realtively unsuccessful. Kuglin and some Dr./Dentist types are the exception.

Besides, rich folks have more to protect. If I though that the TP theories, from "861" to "excise" to "wages are not income," I would surely have tried to protect some of the low six figures I paid the IRS last year.

[ShadesOfKnight]

Low income folks, after deductions, EIC, etc are paying little or no real income taxes, so they have no need for "TP" arguements. Many are using 1040-EZ (1040-A at most).

In many instances, if you scratch a "TP" you find a very, very
greedy, narcissistic person.

Having been one of those "low income folks" (and still am, truth be told), I can assure you of this fact: Over half of your income goes to taxes.

This might even be true of the higher income folk (though I doubt it).

However, even if it is uniform across the board, consider this: When you're living on minimum wage, losing half your income is a much BIGGER problem than losing half of, say, a million dollars a year.

Not knowing enough about (nor talking directly to) the "TPs", I will have to abstain from saying anything about their narcicissm or lack thereof.

[ShadesOfKnight]

This is sophistry. Rich folks generally pay the majority of all income taxes.

Even if you are right, which I doubt, consider this (paraphrased from a previous post):

When making minimum wage, the loss of income is a MUCH bigger problem than when you're making six figures annually. It's far easier to live on the leftovers of six figures than to live on the leftovers of four figures.

[Quixote]

The income tax also sits most unfairly on the middle class.

That was certainly true before 2002. It is much less so for the portion of the middle class that has children. Your statement still holds for those of us in the childless middle class.

[Demosthenes]

I'm guessing you're a younger person - maybe 16ish?

Nah. Since Brown went apeshit mad, I've been working on a profile of the new TP target market. Our new poster seems to fit.

Male
30-35
White
Ex military
Fancies himself a skolar and libertarian
Into the whole gun culture thing
Anarchist leanings
Married young

[Quixote]

This is sophistry. Rich folks generally pay the majority of all income taxes.

Even if you are right, which I doubt, consider this (paraphrased from a previous post):

When making minimum wage, the loss of income is a MUCH bigger problem than when you're making six figures annually. It's far easier to live on the leftovers of six figures than to live on the leftovers of four figures.

That's a different issue. The poor pay little or no income tax because they have little or no income. The tax they do pay, however, has a greater impact, dollar for dollar, than the tax paid by the rich or the middle class.

[Quixote]

I'm guessing you're a younger person - maybe 16ish?

Nah. Since Brown went apeshit mad, I've been working on a profile of the new TP target market. Our new poster seems to fit.

Male
30-35
White
Ex military
Fancies himself a skolar and libertarian
Into the whole gun culture thing
Anarchist leanings
Married young

Are there any trends in education level or income?

[Demosthenes]

Are there any trends in education level or income?

Not in that demographic group.

There's another grouping though that is interesting:

age 18 - 22
both male and female
college educated (most are still in college)
multi-racial
anarchist leanings
more attuned to myspace than forums or email
angry
moderate drug use
from middle and high income families but have personally not held a long term job or career
they grew up on conspiracies, it seems normal to them, which heightens the gullibility factor considerably

The world of TPs as we know it is changing quickly.

[Joey Smith]

More to the Point: After years of investigating these issues, Aaron Russo hasn't been able to get rid of his federal tax liabilities and liens.

As others have indicated, a very, very, very few people have avoided going to jail . . . but even they had to pay their taxes. NOBODY has ever avoided paying their taxes, except where they didn't pay and then fled the country or died or something, i.e., they didn't win in court.

The tax protestor's success rate against the IRS is a precisely calculated 0.00% and the IRS's success rate against the IRS is correspondingly a precisely calculated 100.00%.

[John J. Bulten]

As I understand it, withholding also provides evidence of a liability (through filing and W-2/W-4 documents). Is this not true?

No, sorry, though I once thought it did. Withholding and W-4 do not create any evidence of admissions of gross taxability. W-2 does, and 1040 does if it includes a W-2. Pete touches on the fact that W-4s may be used even without tax liability, at http://www.losthorizons.com/appendix.htm#W-4s , as well as the section of that page immediately after http://www.losthorizons.com/appendix.ht ... ngOfIncome .

NOBODY has ever avoided paying their taxes, except where they didn't pay and then fled the country or died or something, i.e., they didn't win in court. The tax protestor's success rate against the IRS is a precisely calculated 0.00% and the IRS's success rate against the IRS is correspondingly a precisely calculated 100.00%.

If you spell out Joey's implication (nobody has ever avoided paying their taxes by winning in court), it's accurate enough, and in fact tautological. Yes, our court system has (probably) never let a party not pay taxes who was liable for taxes, which is exactly what it's supposed to do. (It's possible that there may exist a That's Outrageous exception, which has not for whatever reason been corrected by DOJ appeal, but if that exists it's certainly not the point.) The point is that we should all pay our taxes. As a tax honesty advocate I'm free to say that. The success rate of those who protest lawful taxes might well be 0.00% after rounding.

Tax honesty is a new breed traceable to the 2003 publication of Cracking the Code. We do not protest any tax: we demand that tax laws be lawfully applied to us. Again, I encourage you to crack the IRC.

[Joey Smith]

the 2003 publication of Cracking the Code

The Weekly World News of tax publications.

[Tax Guest]

ShadesofKnight.

You can't possibly be low income and be paying half your income in taxes, it's impossible. You have no idea what the tax rates are. It is not a fact.

Social Security and Medicare are 7.65%
Fed income taxes on incomes below about $30k range from negative (EIC - free govt. money) to a high of 15%, but even that is not on all your income but only a part, so probably more like 10% is a fair guess at a maximum.
State income tax = maybe 3% maximum at that income.
You might have state disability withheld at maybe 1%.

If you're self-employed you would double the Social Security and Medicare.

How you could get half your income out of this is beyond me. Maybe you don't do your taxes correctly and pay too much?

I've been low income, six figures, broke, self employed, employed -- and I've never come close to paying half my income in taxes.

[Burzmali]

Of course he paid 50% of his income in tax, if you include state income tax, state sales tax, property tax, excise tax, gasoline taxes, cigarette taxes, liquor taxes, and then all the mark ups he paid for all the taxes applied to all of the products he purchased. You didn't actually expect his 50% comment to come without strings attached, did you?

[ShadesOfKnight]

You didn't actually expect his 50% comment to come without strings attached, did you?

I said exactly what I meant, no strings attached. Over half of your income goes to taxes. You are right in your evaluation of the statement, but I would have thought those elements that make up my statement to be self-evident.

Perhaps not.

[ShadesOfKnight]

I'm guessing you're a younger person - maybe 16ish?

Nah. Since Brown went apeshit mad, I've been working on a profile of the new TP target market. Our new poster seems to fit.

Male
30-35
White
Ex military
Fancies himself a skolar and libertarian
Into the whole gun culture thing
Anarchist leanings
Married young

Wrong on all but three of those. I'll let you be the judge of which three, since you seem keen on playing darts in the dark here.

[Question everything]

Low income folks, after deductions, EIC, etc are paying little or no real income taxes, so they have no need for "TP" arguements. Many are using 1040-EZ (1040-A at most).

In many instances, if you scratch a "TP" you find a very, very
greedy, narcissistic person.

Having been one of those "low income folks" (and still am, truth be told), I can assure you of this fact: Over half of your income goes to taxes.

This might even be true of the higher income folk (though I doubt it).

However, even if it is uniform across the board, consider this: When you're living on minimum wage, losing half your income is a much BIGGER problem than losing half of, say, a million dollars a year.

Not knowing enough about (nor talking directly to) the "TPs", I will have to abstain from saying anything about their narcicissm or lack thereof.

And...if you filed (assuming you don't), you'd get that "half" back and then some.

[Burzmali]

You didn't actually expect his 50% comment to come without strings attached, did you?

I said exactly what I meant, no strings attached. Over half of your income goes to taxes. You are right in your evaluation of the statement, but I would have thought those elements that make up my statement to be self-evident.

Perhaps not.

Of course you did. Everyone who comes on Quatloos and complains about taxes makes the same statement. I'd swear there is some secret checklist of speaking points tax foo-s are follow on there visits here. The "50% of my income ends paying taxes" complaint always seems to show up around 3 days in.

The response to that complaint is simple. If you don't like how your taxes are being spent contact your congressman/state rep/city rep. But, being a member of a family of 6, I wouldn't complain too much about property taxes. Glass houses and all...

[Randall]

ShadesofKnight.

You can't possibly be low income and be paying half your income in taxes, it's impossible. You have no idea what the tax rates are. It is not a fact.

Social Security and Medicare are 7.65%
Fed income taxes on incomes below about $30k range from negative (EIC - free govt. money) to a high of 15%, but even that is not on all your income but only a part, so probably more like 10% is a fair guess at a maximum.
State income tax = maybe 3% maximum at that income.
You might have state disability withheld at maybe 1%.

If you're self-employed you would double the Social Security and Medicare.

How you could get half your income out of this is beyond me. Maybe you don't do your taxes correctly and pay too much?

I've been low income, six figures, broke, self employed, employed -- and I've never come close to paying half my income in taxes.

One possible way it could be true is that he has low income but owns a house (perhaps thorugh inheritance) which carries a hefty property tax bill.

If he's talking just income and FICA taxes, then agreed, it is bullshit.

[Randall]

from the other thread:

Randall wrote:
The state does not have the power to steal. Try again.

ShadyKnight replied:
Fair enough. Poor word choice on my part. Replace "steal" with "take."

Which is not quite correct either. The state can 'take' a property through its power of eminent domain. In return the state compensates the rightful owner a reasonable market value. If the two sides disagree what that is, they can go to court. The state cannot just 'take' property and leave you empty handed.

(I am not going to discuss whether some uses of eminent domain are justified.)