"includes" Again

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LPC
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"includes" Again

Post by LPC »

There's a footnote in Hendrickson's motion to dismiss the indictment that cites actual (alleged) authority for the proposition that "includes" can be limiting.

On page 5 of her pleading, in her memorandum of law that is attached to the motion (the pages of which are not numbered, which I believe is another procedural no-no) , Ellen Dennis states that Hendrickson's interpretations of tax statutes is supported by (among other things) "case law regarding whether the term 'includes' is a term of limitation or expansion," with the following footnote (number 2):
Ellen Dennis wrote:One such case is that of Mobley v. Commissioner of Internal Revenue, 532 F.3d 491 (6th Cir. 2008) in which the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit considered whether the definition of “courts” in 28 U.S.C.§610, which lists certain courts included in the definition, therefore excluded those courts not specifically listed and decided that all courts not listed were excluded from the definition.
Unfortunately, the court in Mobley never used the words "limitation," "expansion," or "excluded," and both the facts and the rationale for the decision are distinguishable from everything Hendrickson claims.

In Mobley, the Tax Court decided that it did not have jurisdiction, and also decided that it could not transfer the case to a federal district court under the authority of 28 USC 1631, which empowers "a court as defined in section 610 of this title" to another such court when the first court lacks jurisdiction. The narrow issue in Mobley was whether the Tax Court is a court defined in 28 USC 610, which reads as follows:
As used in this chapter the word "courts" includes the courts of appeals and district courts of the United States, the United States District Court for the District of the Canal Zone, the District Court of Guam, the District Court of the Virgin Islands, the United States Court of Federal Claims, and the Court of International Trade.
The 6th Circuit begins its analysis as follows:
6th Circuit wrote:The terms of § 610 at first glance plausibly point in opposite directions. Pointing in one direction, § 610 does not specifically mention the Tax Court, which suggests that it is not a court as defined in that section. Pointing in the other direction, § 610 talks about what courts are "include[d]" in that definition, which suggests the list is nonexhaustive and could well include a "court" like the Tax Court.
532 F.3d at493 (emphasis added).

The highlighted language shows that the 6th Circuit recognized that the word "includes" usually does not exclude things not listed. This at least undercuts, if not contradicts, Hendrickson's conclusions.

The rest of the opinion discusses the history and context of section 610, and the most important factor to the 6th Circuit was that the "this chapter" referred to in section 610 is Chapter 41 of Title 28, which deals with the Administrative Office of the United States Courts, and section 610 defines the courts subject to that Office. But the opinion finds clear evidence that the Tax Court was never intended to be subject to the supervision of the Administrative Office.

At best, Mobley stands for the proposition that the word "includes" MIGHT be used (somewhat improperly) instead of the word "means," but this is not helpful to Hendrickson because:

1. The definition of "employee" upon which Hendrickson relies is in 3401(c), which begins, "For purposes of this chapter..." and "this chapter" is Chapter 24, "Collection of Income Tax at Source on Wages." But the definitions of "gross income" and "taxable income" for purposes of the federal income tax are found in Chapter 1.

2. The Mobley court was interpreting a section of Title 28, but section 3401(c) is in Title 26, which has its own specific definition of "includes" in section 7701(c) and that definition of "includes" is inconsistent with the conclusion of the Mobley court.

3. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, even if you could believe that the word "includes" in section 3401(c) was ambiguous, Hendrickson's claims would still fail because he has never done the kind of legislative and contextual analysis of the kind shown by the Mobley court to support its interpretation of 28 USC 610. For example, there are many provisions of section 3401 (such as the exclusion for wages paid "for domestic service in a private home") which make no sense, and are clearly meaningless, if section 3401 only applied to wages paid to government employees and corporate officers.

And a final note, which is that Mobley was decided in 2008. Unless Hendrickson has also perfected time travel, he could not possibly have relied upon the Mobley opinion in preparing his income tax returns for 2000 and 2002-2006, which are the years covered by the indictment.
Dan Evans
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ClobberroTestii

Re: "includes" Again

Post by ClobberroTestii »

LPC wrote:For example, there are many provisions of section 3401 (such as the exclusion for wages paid "for domestic service in a private home") which make no sense, and are clearly meaningless, if section 3401 only applied to wages paid to government employees and corporate officers.
Section 3401 does not purport to make any such exclusions. What is excluded from the term "wages" is, among other things, amounts paid for "domestic service in a private home".
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Re: "includes" Again

Post by Imalawman »

ClobberroTestii wrote:
LPC wrote:For example, there are many provisions of section 3401 (such as the exclusion for wages paid "for domestic service in a private home") which make no sense, and are clearly meaningless, if section 3401 only applied to wages paid to government employees and corporate officers.
Section 3401 does not purport to make any such exclusions. What is excluded from the term "wages" is, among other things, amounts paid for "domestic service in a private home".
Why do "domestic services" need to be excluded if the term "includes" only means federally connected wages? Why bother excluding private sector items if ALL private sector items are already excluded?
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SteveSy

Re: "includes" Again

Post by SteveSy »

Imalawman wrote:
ClobberroTestii wrote:
LPC wrote:For example, there are many provisions of section 3401 (such as the exclusion for wages paid "for domestic service in a private home") which make no sense, and are clearly meaningless, if section 3401 only applied to wages paid to government employees and corporate officers.
Section 3401 does not purport to make any such exclusions. What is excluded from the term "wages" is, among other things, amounts paid for "domestic service in a private home".
Why do "domestic services" need to be excluded if the term "includes" only means federally connected wages? Why bother excluding private sector items if ALL private sector items are already excluded?
...
For purposes of this chapter, the term “employee” includes an officer, employee, or elected official of the United States, a State, or any political subdivision thereof, or the District of Columbia, or any agency or instrumentality of any one or more of the foregoing. The term “employee” also includes an officer of a corporation.
Why does an employee of the United States need to be included if ALL employees are already included by default in the general term employee? It make no sense, and is clearly meaningless. Why is there an "also" at the end, isn't that exceptionally redundant?
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Re: "includes" Again

Post by Famspear »

SteveSy wrote:Why does an employee of the United States need to be included if ALL employees are already included by default in the general term employee? It make no sense, and is clearly meaningless. Why is there an "also" at the end, isn't that exceptionally redundant?
The reason is the same as it was this last time this was explained. The reason has not changed.

EDIT: Steve, weren't you the one who had this explained to you just a few weeks ago?
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Re: "includes" Again

Post by webhick »

SteveSy wrote:Why does an employee of the United States need to be included if ALL employees are already included by default in the general term employee? It make no sense, and is clearly meaningless. Why is there an "also" at the end, isn't that exceptionally redundant?
Ockham's razor: It's because some asshole tried to argue that his federally connected wages were not taxable, so the wording was altered to remove all doubt in the matter. Same with the corporate officer, etc.

Like a program that's been slapped together, the IRS code has been patched so many times by so many people that, although it kind of works, it could really use a rewrite.

Not that a rewrite will help. There'll always be a someone with a crowbar and a bit of C4 ready to argue an imaginary loophole which will trigger another bug patch.
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Re: "includes" Again

Post by LPC »

ClobberroTestii wrote:
LPC wrote:For example, there are many provisions of section 3401 (such as the exclusion for wages paid "for domestic service in a private home") which make no sense, and are clearly meaningless, if section 3401 only applied to wages paid to government employees and corporate officers.
Section 3401 does not purport to make any such exclusions. What is excluded from the term "wages" is, among other things, amounts paid for "domestic service in a private home".
That's what I said.
Dan Evans
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SteveSy

Re: "includes" Again

Post by SteveSy »

webhick wrote:
SteveSy wrote:Why does an employee of the United States need to be included if ALL employees are already included by default in the general term employee? It make no sense, and is clearly meaningless. Why is there an "also" at the end, isn't that exceptionally redundant?
Ockham's razor: It's because some asshole tried to argue that his federally connected wages were not taxable, so the wording was altered to remove all doubt in the matter. Same with the corporate officer, etc.
Hmmm, never seen that case. Maybe you can have someone cough up a case showing that.
SteveSy

Re: "includes" Again

Post by SteveSy »

Famspear wrote:
SteveSy wrote:Why does an employee of the United States need to be included if ALL employees are already included by default in the general term employee? It make no sense, and is clearly meaningless. Why is there an "also" at the end, isn't that exceptionally redundant?
The reason is the same as it was this last time this was explained. The reason has not changed.

EDIT: Steve, weren't you the one who had this explained to you just a few weeks ago?
The only explanation I ever got was from one of you trying to say that congress thought that it might be questionable that federal employees were taxable, which of course is ridiculous. The only case that even comes close is the one concerning appointed judges and that's far different than just employees of the federal government. Besides, like all of you keep arguing aren't federally employed workers "employees"? It was senseless to place that in there if the code is as you say. You can't on the one hand make fun of TP's for not including themselves in the general term "employee", so they don't have to be specifically listed, and then on the other try and act like you have a position arguing that federal employed personnel have to be specifically listed...its just, well, stupid. They too are included in the general term.
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Re: "includes" Again

Post by notorial dissent »

Federal Employees are technically officers of the government, not “employees” in the common law sense. If you work for the govt, in almost all cases you have been “appointed” to the position you hold and are thus an “officer” and not an employee, the same differentiation was also tried for corporate officers, they weren’t “hired” but appointed so they were not technically employees either, which is why the definition was expanded to cover them since despite what they technically are, for tax purposes they are “employees”.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.
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Re: "includes" Again

Post by webhick »

SteveSy wrote:
webhick wrote:
SteveSy wrote:Why does an employee of the United States need to be included if ALL employees are already included by default in the general term employee? It make no sense, and is clearly meaningless. Why is there an "also" at the end, isn't that exceptionally redundant?
Ockham's razor: It's because some asshole tried to argue that his federally connected wages were not taxable, so the wording was altered to remove all doubt in the matter. Same with the corporate officer, etc.
Hmmm, never seen that case. Maybe you can have someone cough up a case showing that.
It's the simplest explanation that makes sense on all fronts. Don't know if there's a case.
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Re: "includes" Again

Post by Imalawman »

SteveSy wrote:
Imalawman wrote:
ClobberroTestii wrote:Section 3401 does not purport to make any such exclusions. What is excluded from the term "wages" is, among other things, amounts paid for "domestic service in a private home".
Why do "domestic services" need to be excluded if the term "includes" only means federally connected wages? Why bother excluding private sector items if ALL private sector items are already excluded?
...


Why does an employee of the United States need to be included if ALL employees are already included by default in the general term employee? It make no sense, and is clearly meaningless. Why is there an "also" at the end, isn't that exceptionally redundant?
Answer my question, then I'll answer yours. Fair?
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Re: "includes" Again

Post by LPC »

webhick wrote:
SteveSy wrote:
webhick wrote:Ockham's razor: It's because some asshole tried to argue that his federally connected wages were not taxable, so the wording was altered to remove all doubt in the matter. Same with the corporate officer, etc.
Hmmm, never seen that case. Maybe you can have someone cough up a case showing that.
It's the simplest explanation that makes sense on all fronts. Don't know if there's a case.
I don't know about cases, but there might be some legislative history that would explain the language.

but it would be very old, because section 3401(c) is pretty much the same as when it was enacted in 1954. If I was going to research it (which I'm not), I'd start with the committee reports on the Internal Revenue Code of 1954.

I suspect that the language regarding government officers was added (or at modified) as part of either the Public Salary Tax Act of 1939 or the "Victory Tax Act" of 1942, because the 1939 act began taxing the salaries of state employees for the first time, and the 1942 act imposed withholding on wages for the first time.

As I've mentioned before, there is a Supreme Court explanation of the specific reference to the salaries of federal employees in the levy provisions of section 6331:
Supreme Court wrote:Nor is there merit in petitioner’s contention that Congress, by specifically providing in 6331 for levy upon the accrued salaries of federal employees, but not mentioning state employees, evinced an intention to exclude the latter from levy. The explanation of that action by Congress appears quite clearly to be that this Court had held in Smith v. Jackson, 246 U.S. 388, that a federal disbursing officer might not, in the absence of express congressional authorization, set off an indebtedness of a federal employee to the Government against the employee’s salary, and, pursuant to that opinion, the Comptroller General ruled that an ‘administrative official served with [notices of levy] would be without authority to withhold any portion of the current salary of such employee in satisfaction of the notices of levy and distraint.’ 26 Comp. Gen. 907, 912 (1947). It is evident that 6331 was enacted to overcome that difficulty and to subject the salaries of federal employees to the same collection procedures as are available against all other taxpayers, including employees of a State.
Sims v. United States, 359 U.S. 108, 112-113 (1959).

The need for a specific authority for withholding from federal employees may have been added at the same time as the perceived need for specific authority for levy on federal employees.
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SteveSy

Re: "includes" Again

Post by SteveSy »

Imalawman wrote:
SteveSy wrote:
Imalawman wrote:Why do "domestic services" need to be excluded if the term "includes" only means federally connected wages? Why bother excluding private sector items if ALL private sector items are already excluded?
Why does an employee of the United States need to be included if ALL employees are already included by default in the general term employee? It make no sense, and is clearly meaningless. Why is there an "also" at the end, isn't that exceptionally redundant?
Answer my question, then I'll answer yours. Fair?
Fair enough....I unfortunately don't have one for you though. Maybe someone who has studied this theory and subscribes to it has a plausible idea. I'm merely playing devils advocate.
LPC wrote:The need for a specific authority for withholding from federal employees may have been added at the same time as the perceived need for specific authority for levy on federal employees.
That's all fine and good but none the less a federal employee is still an "employee" and specifically listing them in the included section doesn't make them any more of an "employee" lol. If anything it places in question the fact that just because you might be included in the general term employee doesn't necessarily mean you are an "employee" in the code. If so then United States employees wouldn't need to be included now would they. :lol:
Last edited by SteveSy on Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
ClobberroTestii

Re: "includes" Again

Post by ClobberroTestii »

LPC wrote:
ClobberroTestii wrote:
LPC wrote:For example, there are many provisions of section 3401 (such as the exclusion for wages paid "for domestic service in a private home") which make no sense, and are clearly meaningless, if section 3401 only applied to wages paid to government employees and corporate officers.
Section 3401 does not purport to make any such exclusions. What is excluded from the term "wages" is, among other things, amounts paid for "domestic service in a private home".
That's what I said.
No it's not. By definition, amounts paid "for domestic service in a private home" are excluded from the term "wages". Here's what you wrote, in pertinenet part: "(such as the exclusion for wages paid "for domestic service in a private home")". By your statement you are equating "wages" to "amounts paid for domestic service in a private home", a nonsensical result.
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Re: "includes" Again

Post by LPC »

As trolling goes, that's a new low, even for you. I spelled everything correctly, my grammar was correct, and my meaning was clear (and correct), but you didn't like my phrasing?

The sum total of your postings to date have been not just useless and a waste of my time, but an annoying waste of my time, so my "ignore list" now has a second member.
Dan Evans
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ClobberroTestii

Re: "includes" Again

Post by ClobberroTestii »

LPC wrote:As trolling goes, that's a new low, even for you. I spelled everything correctly, my grammar was correct, and my meaning was clear (and correct), but you didn't like my phrasing?

The sum total of your postings to date have been not just useless and a waste of my time, but an annoying waste of my time, so my "ignore list" now has a second member.
C'mon, sorehead....think about what you wrote in the context you wrote it and maybe you'll have learned something.
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Re: "includes" Again

Post by Joey Smith »

Bottom line: Nobody who matters (IRS, courts, tax lawyers, legal scholars, etc.) believes that the interpretation of "income" or "wages" or "employee", etc., as held by Pete Hendrickson, et al., is anything more than a laughable absurdity.

So, they can waste as many gigabytes as they want on their discussion board yakking about it, and they can file all sorts of papers with whoever making the claim, but nobody who matters is buying it or even hinting around like they may buy these kookie theories in the future.

This is in addition to Hendrickson, et al., just being flat-assed wrong. Where did the tire-changers and firewood-choppers all of a sudden get the monopoly on knowledge?

So there!
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Re: "includes" Again

Post by webhick »

Joey Smith wrote:This is in addition to Hendrickson, et al., just being flat-assed wrong. Where did the tire-changers and firewood-choppers all of a sudden get the monopoly on knowledge?
They can't have the monopoly because the entire game board is in all caps, there's an income tax of 15%, you have to have a registered vehicle for free parking, you can have your ass thrown in the slammer, you have to play with fiat money - all of which is dolled out equally at the beginning of the game which is socialism, you must play as your strawman, and you can never get off the grid.
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Re: "includes" Again

Post by The Observer »

webhick wrote:They can't have the monopoly because the entire game board is in all caps, there's an income tax of 15%, you have to have a registered vehicle for free parking, you can have your ass thrown in the slammer, you have to play with fiat money - all of which is dolled out equally at the beginning of the game which is socialism, you must play as your strawman, and you can never get off the grid.
But the TPs certainly don't have an objection to collecting on those Community Chest cards. In fact, the TP version of Monopoly would only consist of alternating Community Chest and Go (Collect $200) spaces.
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