"includes" Again

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Imalawman
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Re: "includes" Again

Post by Imalawman »

SteveSy wrote:
Imalawman wrote:Why do "domestic services" need to be excluded if the term "includes" only means federally connected wages? Why bother excluding private sector items if ALL private sector items are already excluded?

Why does an employee of the United States need to be included if ALL employees are already included by default in the general term employee? It make no sense, and is clearly meaningless. Why is there an "also" at the end, isn't that exceptionally redundant?


Answer my question, then I'll answer yours. Fair?
Fair enough....I unfortunately don't have one for you though. Maybe someone who has studied this theory and subscribes to it has a plausible idea. I'm merely playing devils advocate.
LPC wrote:The need for a specific authority for withholding from federal employees may have been added at the same time as the perceived need for specific authority for levy on federal employees.
That's all fine and good but none the less a federal employee is still an "employee" and specifically listing them in the included section doesn't make them any more of an "employee" lol. If anything it places in question the fact that just because you might be included in the general term employee doesn't necessarily mean you are an "employee" in the code. If so then United States employees wouldn't need to be included now would they. :lol:
I think you see in the code as you become more familiar with it, it tends to be a sort of a fill in the holes type of code. They like to modify where they should probably just re-write or add a different subsection. I think when there became some talk about whether "officers" were "employees" (and this was an issue, but nothing very substantial came of it) the treasury probably asked congress to simply add that employee included officers of corporations and federal "officers". I think that it was a simple fix - mind you, not necessary. The IRS could have litigated the issue and then had judge made law on the issue, but instead it was precluded by being redundant, but more clear.

For instance, if I ran a restaurant and I had a cake on the menu and I was asked by a few people if it had eggs in the recipe, I might add on the menu or wherever that "the cake recipe includes eggs". Now, most people would assume that a cake recipe would include eggs, but I'm just being clear to avoid any controversy. What would not make sense is if someone then said, "eww, your cake only has eggs, its just baked eggs, gross". He would be laughed out of the restaurant pretty quick. Of all of the TP theories, this one might be the most ludicrous to me. How you ever twist a word like includes to mean "only", I will never know. Trying to convince a jury that you seriously believed that to be the case is going to be tough.
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Re: "includes" Again

Post by Gregg »

Of all of the TP theories, this one might be the most ludicrous to me. How you ever twist a word like includes to mean "only", I will never know. Trying to convince a jury that you seriously believed that to be the case is going to be tough.
no, I actually get that, or sort of. Say you're talking baseball.

"The major leagues have 32 teams, the National League includes the Reds, the Dodgers and the Phillies, among others "

"The American league includes 16 of the teams"

It's klunky language wise, but I believe gramatically correct. I
hardly see it as a way to make a law. And really, I've seen it posted before, at the very begining of the IRC isn't there a clause that negates the really flimsy court case they rely on, something to the effect of "Includes, when used here, does not exclude the otherwise normal sense of the word includes"?
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Re: "includes" Again

Post by Imalawman »

Gregg wrote:
Of all of the TP theories, this one might be the most ludicrous to me. How you ever twist a word like includes to mean "only", I will never know. Trying to convince a jury that you seriously believed that to be the case is going to be tough.
no, I actually get that, or sort of. Say you're talking baseball.

"The major leagues have 32 teams, the National League includes the Reds, the Dodgers and the Phillies, among others "

"The American league includes 16 of the teams"

It's klunky language wise, but I believe gramatically correct. I
hardly see it as a way to make a law. And really, I've seen it posted before, at the very begining of the IRC isn't there a clause that negates the really flimsy court case they rely on, something to the effect of "Includes, when used here, does not exclude the otherwise normal sense of the word includes"?
IRC 7701 is what you're thinking of. But I must disagree with you, to a point, on your grammar. I still don't think that the term means "only" in your sentence. Based on context that is what we might assume, but I do not believe that includes ever means "only" when used by itself. The sentence is vague as to what you mean there because it leaves the possibility that the American League includes something else besides major league teams. The point being that that without the modifier 'only' or other such modifier, includes is not a limiting term. For instance, the phrase could read, "the A.L. includes the remaining 16 teams, not in the National League". Here the term includes is modified by the word "remaining" teams - indicating that the set is closed - but only to the extent of major league teams. The set, A.L., could still include other items.

I still think when you wish to designate that a set is comprised only of the items stated, the terms "only" or "solely" must be used. Otherwise, I do not view it as proper grammar. At least, it is not proper in the sense of being clear and precise. But to the point, interpreting employee to only include fed. officers or corp officers is just silly. That was my point, and I do think its among the more stupid theories.
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Re: "includes" Again

Post by LPC »

Gregg wrote:And really, I've seen it posted before, at the very begining of the IRC isn't there a clause that negates the really flimsy court case they rely on, something to the effect of "Includes, when used here, does not exclude the otherwise normal sense of the word includes"?
See http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html#includes
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Re: "includes" Again

Post by Judge Roy Bean »

Gregg wrote:
Of all of the TP theories, this one might be the most ludicrous to me. How you ever twist a word like includes to mean "only", I will never know. Trying to convince a jury that you seriously believed that to be the case is going to be tough.
no, I actually get that, or sort of. Say you're talking baseball.

"The major leagues have 32 teams, the National League includes the Reds, the Dodgers and the Phillies, among others "

"The American league includes 16 of the teams"

It's klunky language wise, but I believe gramatically correct.
It's worse than klunky. It invites confusion and wouldn't get past a first-level editor in a newsroom (even the sports desk :wink: ); "The major leagues have 32 teams...." is abysmally disinformative; are there 32 in each or just 32 among some undisclosed number of leagues?

"The American league includes 16 of the teams" is equally confusing in light of the vagaries established in the previous sentence. 16 of 32 or 16 of 64?

Poorly written law usually won't survive the test of time. What does survive though, are some really poorly written instructions and directions that are the result of marginally written (as in tweaked all along the way) law.

I've said this before, if I were to send Congress the world's best barbecue rib recipe we'd wind up with some really nasty and unrecognizable stuff on the buffet. Then someone in a bureaucracy takes on the task of interpreting what they were told is the recipe and making it edible (understandable) by the taxpayers.

It ain't pretty. It keeps the accountants and tax law guys in business.
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Re: "includes" Again

Post by Randall »

Does it include the Pittsburgh Pirates? While it appears they are members of the National League, one could argue they are not a major league team.
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Re: "includes" Again

Post by Gregg »

okay, okay okay.....what I was thinking didn't translate well to what I wrote. I can see how "includes" might be all inclusive, so to speak, but I what I was meaning to say was although in some context it makes sense to me, it's only when you know the set they're talking about, and know that all of the set is mentioned. Let me out of this grafefully, please. I promise I'm not the doddering idiot the whole thing makes me look like.
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Re: "includes" Again

Post by Red Cedar PM »

webhick wrote:
Joey Smith wrote:This is in addition to Hendrickson, et al., just being flat-assed wrong. Where did the tire-changers and firewood-choppers all of a sudden get the monopoly on knowledge?
They can't have the monopoly because the entire game board is in all caps, there's an income tax of 15%, you have to have a registered vehicle for free parking, you can have your ass thrown in the slammer, you have to play with fiat money - all of which is dolled out equally at the beginning of the game which is socialism, you must play as your strawman, and you can never get off the grid.
Ha, wow. That is probably the funniest thing I have read on here in a long time. Thanks for brightening the day.
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Re: "includes" Again

Post by Kimokeo »

In the game of monopoly, if you buy a house or hotel, do you pay rent to the player?
I mean, what if the player bought the house or hotel, but moved it to another entity, or is a non-entity themselves. Who do you pay the rent to when you land on the property.

Of course, I'm used to rushing to roll the dice with anyone to avoid paying.
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Re: "includes" Again

Post by Judge Roy Bean »

Gregg wrote:okay, okay okay.....what I was thinking didn't translate well to what I wrote. ....
Congratulations, you have something in common with Washington. :wink:
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Re: "includes" Again

Post by Gregg »

Judge Roy Bean wrote:
Gregg wrote:okay, okay okay.....what I was thinking didn't translate well to what I wrote. ....
Congratulations, you have something in common with Washington. :wink:
are you implying I am politician-like? Why, I never.....
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Re: "includes" Again

Post by fortinbras »

I think Judge Roy Bean likened you to President George Washington, who was a surveyor, not a professional writer.
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Re: "includes" Again

Post by Demosthenes »

Gregg wrote:Why, I never.....
You did once, but you didn't like it.
Demo.
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Re: "includes" Again

Post by Gregg »

UGA Lawdog wrote:
Demosthenes wrote:
Gregg wrote:Why, I never.....
You did once, but you didn't like it.
Not only did he not like it, he didn't inhale either.
Oh no, although I no longer indulge, in the day I inhaled on a Von Nut Hausian scale
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Re: "includes" Again

Post by LPC »

A new gem from LH:
Pablo Rodriguez wrote:Okay, I grant it's not the best example but here's another one that I think hits more closely to the fact that the term including is exclusive.

§ 71. Alimony and separate maintenance payments
(d) Spouse
For purposes of this section, the term “spouse” includes a former spouse.


If we are to understand the term including as always being inclusive or a term of enlargement, then we must conclude that alimony payments are made to everyone as well as the former spouse - that's if we believe the IRS and other web sites.

But if the term including is exclusive, the this makes perfect sense. Whenever, for the purposes of this chapter, we encounter "spouse", we really should be thinking "former spouse".
Which would mean that "separate maintenance" paid to a current spouse is not deductible by the payor, and not income to the recipient.

Brilliant!
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Re: "includes" Again

Post by Imalawman »

I really miss the "head hitting the wall" emoticon.
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Re: "includes" Again

Post by wserra »

Imalawman wrote:I really miss the "head hitting the wall" emoticon.
I keep trying to convince folks to substitute the name "Schiller!", used as an exclamation.

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Re: "includes" Again

Post by Doktor Avalanche »

Demosthenes wrote:
Gregg wrote:Why, I never.....
You did once, but you didn't like it.
And I never complained the whole time. :wink:
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