Aaron Russo (Continued)

[ASITStands]

There are statistics that add up the total tax burden, but none that I have seen are near 50%.

See, for example, http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/burd ... -04-04.pdf

The Tax Foundation, a policy research group, estimates the average taxpayer's total state and local tax burden by year in each of the 50 states and the District of Columbia. That burden reflects what residents pay in state and local income taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, luxury taxes and fuel taxes, among others. For information on the report and links to state data see http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/335.html

Add property and sales taxes, and what do you get? Not sure, but maybe that's where the "half your income" characterization arises. Whatta ya think?

I remember reading years ago in Reader's Digest the total percentage was something like 40%. Not sure.

[Dezcad]

There are statistics that add up the total tax burden, but none that I have seen are near 50%.

See, for example, http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/burd ... -04-04.pdf

The Tax Foundation, a policy research group, estimates the average taxpayer's total state and local tax burden by year in each of the 50 states and the District of Columbia. That burden reflects what residents pay in state and local income taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, luxury taxes and fuel taxes, among others. For information on the report and links to state data see http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/335.html

Add property and sales taxes, and what do you get? Not sure, but maybe that's where the "half your income" characterization arises. Whatta ya think?

I remember reading years ago in Reader's Digest the total percentage was something like 40%. Not sure.

Please read the bold portion above, it may bring light onto your first comment.

And BTW, when did 40% become "over half" as you stated previously in this thread:

I can assure you of this fact: Over half of your income goes to taxes.

[webhick]

There are statistics that add up the total tax burden, but none that I have seen are near 50%.

See, for example, http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/burd ... -04-04.pdf

The Tax Foundation, a policy research group, estimates the average taxpayer's total state and local tax burden by year in each of the 50 states and the District of Columbia. That burden reflects what residents pay in state and local income taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, luxury taxes and fuel taxes, among others. For information on the report and links to state data see http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/335.html

Add property and sales taxes, and what do you get? Not sure, but maybe that's where the "half your income" characterization arises. Whatta ya think?

I remember reading years ago in Reader's Digest the total percentage was something like 40%. Not sure.

I believe those figures include the sales and property taxes.

I wouldn't take anything Reader's Digest says at fact. They suck as bad as the women's magazines currently on the market.

[Demosthenes]

I remember reading years ago in Reader's Digest the total percentage was something like 40%. Not sure.

Be careful with old stats, because years ago, the maximum income tax bracket was greater than 90%.

[Quixote]

Some people pad the total by using 15.3% as the FICA rate. They argue that if social security were eliminated, employers would increase wages by the 7.65% that they are currently paying for their half of FICA. That assumes the employees have a greater bargaining position than they are likely to have.

[silversopp]

Some people pad the total by using 15.3% as the FICA rate. They argue that if social security were eliminated, employers would increase wages by the 7.65% that they are currently paying for their half of FICA. That assumes the employees have a greater bargaining position than they are likely to have.

The 15.3% rate applies to those that get 1099ed.

If the average tax burden is in the 30s, it would not be surprising is some in the highest tax bracket do end up paying 50% in total taxes each year. I'd consider myself upper middle class, and I'm probably at 30% in terms of tax burden. The claim that you pay over half in taxes does not apply to the vast majority of the population.

[Red Cedar PM]

There are statistics that add up the total tax burden, but none that I have seen are near 50%.

See, for example, http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/burd ... -04-04.pdf

The Tax Foundation, a policy research group, estimates the average taxpayer's total state and local tax burden by year in each of the 50 states and the District of Columbia. That burden reflects what residents pay in state and local income taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, luxury taxes and fuel taxes, among others. For information on the report and links to state data see http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/335.html

Add property and sales taxes, and what do you get? Not sure, but maybe that's where the "half your income" characterization arises. Whatta ya think?

I remember reading years ago in Reader's Digest the total percentage was something like 40%. Not sure.

I believe those figures include the sales and property taxes.

I wouldn't take anything Reader's Digest says at fact. They suck as bad as the women's magazines currently on the market.

The Tax Foundation report (which is great reading, by the way) includes all taxes whether on income, cigarettes, gasoline, property, etc. imposed by federal, state, and local units. They also calculate "tax freedom day" which is the day in which the average US citizen has earned enough income throughout the year to cover their entire tax burden. This year's was sometime in mid-April (the 17th I believe). Since Mr. ShadesofKnight considers himself low-income and the higher taxpayers bear most of the tax burden, it is highly likely that he is full of bull hockey, especially since the report considers the economic incidence of all taxes on everyone, including estate and corporate taxes, even though most individuals do not pay those taxes directly.

[silversopp]

And what, precisely, is a Congressman going to do? What makes you think that they listen to those without means? Lobbying groups hold far more of their attention than I ever could hope to garner, and that is an unfortunate fact.

So quit with the pie-in-the-sky "contact your Congressman" statements. They're just another way of saying "have faith."

Ever think that there are lobbyist groups that want lower taxes?

If you want the law to change, you have to get active in politics. Join a special interest group, get active in your local Dem/Rep parties, join a third party if neither Dem/Rep appeals to you, create your own PAC, collect signatures to put an amendment on the ballot (does not apply in all states), write letters to your newspaper, etc.

Buying books written by gurus will not change the law. Following TP advice will not change the law. Going to prison won't change the law. Etc etc.

The choice is yours. If you think taxes are too high get active in politics. If you hate the income tax, hook up with the Fair-Tax people. There are a million productive things you can do.

Honestly, if all these TPs, and all the millions that the gurus scam out of them for books, legal filings, lectures, etc were used in the policial arena, the TPs would probably have a couple dozen Congressmen by now. When close votes come up, the TP-backed Congressmen could exchange their vote on that issue in order to get through some anti-income tax / less taxation bills.

Instead, they throw away their ability to change the law with lame cop-outs like ShadesOfKnight's above post.

[ShadesOfKnight]

Instead, they throw away their ability to change the law with lame cop-outs like ShadesOfKnight's above post.

A cop out that you dodged rather neatly. The overarching question was "And what, precisely, is a Congressman going to do? "

However, just for fun... Let's use your dodge as a starting point. The "TPs" now have a couple dozen Congressmen. I might have missed this day in American Government in High School, but I could swear that a couple dozen isn't a majority and that a majority is needed for laws.

You have a couple dozen, they have a couple hundred. Your congressmen offer to assist a narrow vote for concessions. Their congressmen offer to change a near loss to a close vote.... who do you realistically think will carry the day?

[Demosthenes]

The "TPs" now have a couple dozen Congressmen.

They only have one, at best, and he pays taxes. They should think about why that is.

[Quixote]

It truly is a matter of WHO you know.

It's also a matter of what you want done. Remember, in the years just before his retirement, Bill Archer, Chairman of Ways and Means, was sending up trial balloons for a federal sales tax. Nothing ever came of that, because there was no groundswell of support for the idea.

[silversopp]

A cop out that you dodged rather neatly. The overarching question was "And what, precisely, is a Congressman going to do?"

I had thought that the following was pretty easy to follow, but I was wrong:

"Honestly, if all these TPs, and all the millions that the gurus scam out of them for books, legal filings, lectures, etc were used in the policial arena, the TPs would probably have a couple dozen Congressmen by now. When close votes come up, the TP-backed Congressmen could exchange their vote on that issue in order to get through some anti-income tax / less taxation bills."

Read the above a few more times, and the answer to your question will appear - much like how a boat appears in 3D artwork if you stare at it long enough.

However, just for fun... Let's use your dodge as a starting point. The "TPs" now have a couple dozen Congressmen. I might have missed this day in American Government in High School, but I could swear that a couple dozen isn't a majority and that a majority is needed for laws.

Keep on staring, the answer will jump out at you pretty soon.

You have a couple dozen, they have a couple hundred. Your congressmen offer to assist a narrow vote for concessions. Their congressmen offer to change a near loss to a close vote.... who do you realistically think will carry the day?

Looks like I was wrong. The answer just won't click in your head. The swing votes in any election hold the most power. In Congress, the wishy-washy Congressmen are often able to sell their vote for some silly amendment that appeals to their district. That is why a bill on subject X will have smaller attached bills on subjects A,B,C, and D. Go read some of the larger bills that have passed, and things should start clicking for you a bit faster.

Let's assume for a minute that the Congressmen elected from the millions of dollars available in the TP movement are so incompetent that they can't figure out how to get the law changed. How would that situation be any different from the current TP strategy of sending all their millions to con-artists who can't figure out how to get the law changed? At least with the Congressmen, you'd have a voice in D.C. instead of a voice in prisons around the nation. Is Irwin Schiff going to change the law for you anytime soon?

This opposition to actually engaging in productive activities just shows that the TPs really dont care about changing the law, they just want to invent their own laws and hope the courts accept that. There is something mentally off with those people.

[Demosthenes]

What Silversopp said!

[silversopp]

What Silversopp said!

I feel a need to clarify that I was talking about what a normal rational person who is against income tax should be doing in America to change things.

Since we are dealing with TPs, who are whacked out irrational people, it would probably be best not to encourage them to get involved in the political system. As much as I hate the Iraq war, I wouldn't want to see our soldiers being sent down into caves to fight the Jewish shape shifting Reptiles (Gentile shape shifting reptiles apparently would be spared by TPs).

[Demosthenes]

Anyone see CSI last night? It was all about a club that believed in shape shifting alien lizards who were running the world.

[Burzmali]

Anyone see CSI last night? It was all about a club that believed in shape shifting alien lizards who were running the world.

And they believed that cats could detect and/or protect them from said lizards. Anything to admit oh furry one?

[Demosthenes]

Anyone see CSI last night? It was all about a club that believed in shape shifting alien lizards who were running the world.

And they believed that cats could detect and/or protect them from said lizards. Anything to admit oh furry one?

Cats hiss. Snakes hiss. Demo has spoken.

[Nikki]

Don't forget geese. Geese hiss, too.

[jg]

Hissing cockroach (Gromphadorhina portentosa)
http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/anim ... roach.html

[The Observer]

Hissing cockroach (Gromphadorhina portentosa)
http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/anim ... roach.html

And let's not forget about Alger Hiss.