So much for the new Liberty Dollar leader

[Lambkin]

Steve, what percentage of your monthly gross receipts are paid in Libbies? Even if you are a real failure at business and are well-connected in the sovereign community, I'm guessing it's well below 1%. Actually I'm guessing it's like 1% of a single day's receipts, in a month.

I already said I haven't used them...but I would gladly accept them. My family used to use another form of barter and we got a lot of business out of it but it was shutdown, or I should say the government screwed it up so bad it wasn't worth using anymore.

Let's put it this way. If I knew there was an advertising agency that accepted them I would be happier than hell to accept them. I would just collect the libbies from people I would have probably never have gotten business from and basically get a considerably reduced cost of advertising out of it.

So if there is no ad agency taking Libbies, do you still want them? As your business advisor, I have to tell you this is not sounding like a good deal for you. There are a lot more people who will barter for something useful than will walk into a shop with a Liberty Dollar. A Liberty Dollar is not good barter - it's bad currency. Good barter would be something I can use like a gallon of gas or a cord of wood or a velvet Elvis.

[SteveSy]

Steve, what percentage of your monthly gross receipts are paid in Libbies? Even if you are a real failure at business and are well-connected in the sovereign community, I'm guessing it's well below 1%. Actually I'm guessing it's like 1% of a single day's receipts, in a month.

I already said I haven't used them...but I would gladly accept them. My family used to use another form of barter and we got a lot of business out of it but it was shutdown, or I should say the government screwed it up so bad it wasn't worth using anymore.

Let's put it this way. If I knew there was an advertising agency that accepted them I would be happier than hell to accept them. I would just collect the libbies from people I would have probably never have gotten business from and basically get a considerably reduced cost of advertising out of it.

So if there is no ad agency taking Libbies, do you still want them? As your business advisor, I have to tell you this is not sounding like a good deal for you. There are a lot more people who will barter for something useful than will walk into a shop with a Liberty Dollar. A Liberty Dollar is not good barter - it's bad currency. Good barter would be something I can use like a gallon of gas or a cord of wood or a velvet Elvis.

Well if its less than 1% over a month I'm not going to lose much now am I. Since all people like me are pool cleaners according to Joey, I'll only lose about $3 a month..

The point is, is it isn't a rip off unless someone is trying to convince someone else they're U.S. dollars or that they contain $20 in silver and if they are punish them to the fullest extent of the law...beyond that who gives a care. Let people use them, its not hurting you or anyone else.

[The Operative]

That's only to dispel your argument that FRNs are better somehow, yet you can't seem to put FRN's under the same microscope. Again what the heck do you get when you melt a coined dollar down.

Talking out of both sides of your mouth again. It was you who said that libbies are no purchased for the value of their metal, yet you now want to compare value of the raw materials of FRNs and libbies. Fine, the raw material of libby MAY be worth more than the raw material of a $1 coin FRN (that is not silver). Of course, there is not guarantee that Bernard actually used silver or that his chosen replacement (which he has since canned) did not mint some falsies.

However, the VALUE of an FRN is a known quantity. I go into any vendor and the price is known or is obtainable. I know how many FRNs I have to trade to obtain the product. The value of a libby, not so much. It is only worth what someone will give you for it. Like the person who billed $500 for her labor and accepted a gold liberty with a face value of $500 in exchange. When she needed money to pay her office rent, she went to a coin dealer (no info provided on what he offered), she asked liberty associate (who offered $400, a 25% loss), she finally got her landlord to give her $475 for it (a 5% loss). All of that in the space of a month. An FRN doesn't lose 5% of its face value in a month.

Let's assume that no one holds onto a libby but uses them for trade. But that $20 libby is not worth $20 unless you get some other sucker to trade you $20 worth of stuff for it. The person that is now in possession of that libby has to convince some other person to trade $20 worth of stuff for it.

He doesn't have to convince anyone...he looks at a directory and finds a retailer to suit his purpose. If there's nothing he wants then don't use them, its simple.

So, it is going to collect dust in his desk drawer? Suppose he was one of the unlucky ones who bought a $50 libby. How long is he going to have to wait to get his $50 worth of stuff?

As for barter script, unlike script from a buyer's club, someone has to trade FRNs with von Nuts in order to get the libbies to start with. Eventually, someone, somewhere is going to need to convert those back to FRNs because they need the actual money to buy inventory or the repair shop doesn't accept them anymore or any other host of reasons.

People would be stupid to accept only libbies...that's a really silly argument. You use them to a benefit yourself. You get customers you wouldn't ordinarily get.

Where did I say that people would only accept libbies? I didn't. That is you reading into things again.

Also, I am not going to accept the possible loss of having to trade the libbies for less than what I accepted them for in order to get a couple more customers. I would rather use more effective advertising and better service to get customers. If someone refuses to deal with me because I do not accept libbies, then so be it.

Like I said above do you get really pissed when you walk in to a pizza place and buy $5 worth of token only to see you got $.20 worth of tin? Do you run to the management and complain that if you melted those crappy tokens down you would lose your ass? Or do you go play the games with the tokens knowing each token represents what would otherwise be a quarter? Now what if the token machine issued silver tokens but they were worth only $2.50?

No, because I know exactly what I am getting in exchange for my money. With libbies, a person has to purchase them from von Nuts for $20 and hopefully trade them to another for something equal to that $20. Eventually, someone, somewhere will have to convert back to FRNs or trade them for less than face value. Whoever accepted it at face value that ends up trading it for less than face value, loses.

Like this person who traded $500 of her labor for a gold libby that she luckily convinced her landlord to accept for $475. The liberty associate was only going to give her $400.

That wasn't very smart of her.

Yet, that was what she had to do. She accepted the coin because of its fraudulent $500 face value. She traded it for less than face because she needed the money. Actually, she was lucky that her landlord gave her $475 for it.

[Gregg]

But starting with real dollars and then reducing their value by conversion to Libbies, this is a waste of time that could be easily avoided by just spending the cash you started with.

Do you honestly believe people who accept them would have gotten that business from that patron had it not been for libbies?

do you think at least some of them might have used a coupon (4 cents each @ kinkos) if that was offered instead?

And quit calling it barter, they're not, they're counterfeit money plain and simple....foisted off on people who haven't thought through the actual concept of money, something you've made obvious you haven't done either. Barter is "I trade you something I have or do, for something you have or do, instead of cash" I build a guy a transmission for his truck, he paints my car for me. No middleman raking in 100% profit on the tokens I trade him for the paint job, or he trades me for the box build. When he gives me $1,000 worth of tokens, and I take them, you can't get around the fact that Libby Dollar Inc made 100% profit on the tokens we used....now the rule of zero sums or thermo-dynamics or something like dictates that somewhere that profit that Von Nuthaus took has to come off the back of someone eventually. I can't without tracing individual transactions tell you who, but somewhere, someone is getting ripped off.

If I print the above mentioned coupons at a copy store, the copy store takes 8 cents a page from my profits, which I'm glad to pay...but I ain't gonna take the chance of getting stuck holding the bag on neat shiny tokens @ $20 a pop, I can factor in coupons when they're a few pennies but not half whatever the transaction is.... and that's from a real businessman who runs a real business, not some theoretical herbal foods and conspiracy bookstore place.

Why don't you go over to Weston's house and watch Red Dawn with him....

[Gregg]

That's only to dispel your argument that FRNs are better somehow, yet you can't seem to put FRN's under the same microscope. Again what the heck do you get when you melt a coined dollar down.

and quit making that argument too, because it's stupid...I don't have to ever melt down a real coin unless and until the US Government collapses, which isn't a reasonable argument. See, no matter what the metal is worth in a quarter, I can take 25 of them and someone will give me $10 in cash or services for it, period...it's backed by the United States of America which is a pretty solid institution, compared to say...Von Nuthaus...
I'm fairly certain that in 20 years, Von Nuthaus will be at most a footnote among people who laugh at specie nuts and perhaps people who collect small obscure collectors ingots...and I'm more than certain that in the same 20 years the US Treasury will still be in a big marble building in DC and dealing in US Coins at face value and federal reserve notes, also at face value.

[notorial dissent]

Steve, there is no condition under which the purchasers of Libbys could not lose money. They have NO face value, the only value they have is the putative value of what ever precious metal they may contain, and there is no serious market or use for them, and the true irony of the whole thing, is that their putative value is based soley upon the value of the so called worthless FRN’s used to purchase them.

They aren't tied to FRN's. Their metal value is controlled by the silver market. FRN's could totally collapse in value and libbies would still retain value even if you melted them down, which of course is not the intended purpose.
Oh, and then just what are they tied to then, potatoes??? I know this has escaped your trap like mind, but the silver market is based on FRN’s, or whatever currency is in use locally. And the value of silver is based on demand, no demand, no value. Get a clue Stevie.
There are merchants that accept them at face value, so they have a "face value".
There are merchants who will accept skunk skins, but we are not on the skunk skin standard, so they are of little reasonable or practical value, just like a Libby.

The ONLY reason the Libbys were created was to separate the gullible and simple from their “worthless” FRN’s. Libbys were and are a fraud, and it is only in minor degree that they differ from any other con job.

They're not a fraud...No one is forced to accept these. No one is duped in to believing the weight in silver is equal to market value. They are used as a method to barter with, with the added benefit of always having a value regardless if the U.S dollar loses value. If the U.S. dollar loses value the libbies you purchase today lose nothing, they will only gain in value.
Get over it Stevie, they are issued with a false face value on them, they aren’t worth what they are sold for, and they are deceptive in that someone who doesn’t know they are worthless could easily be duped into taking them, and that is exactly the intent with which they were issued. And that Stevie dear is the definition of fraud.
If libbies were issued in 1970 that 1970 libbie would be worth far more than its face value if melted down.
If the person who had them had hung on to them and not traded them in for the equally devalued next value up, and if you don’t take into consideration the loss of interest that could have been achieved by actually investing in something that had some value.
They're used to barter with just like many of the other bartering schemes widely available today. Instead of stamps or using a barter card its silver. You've just swallowed the DOJ utter nonsense by the gallon.
No, Stevie, I just know nonsense when I see it.

To put it bluntly, and particularly for you, simply, there is no way or situation under which the purchasers of the Libbys were not going to lose. They were purchased for at least twice their actual, putative metal content, their “face value” is a fraud, and they are not and cannot be what they are touted to be. This is plain and simple fraud any way you look at it, or at least any sane rational person would look at it.

They aren't an investment in silver, no one has ever said people should buy these to invest in silver. U.S. dollar coins are totally worthless when melted down. Their only value is that they can be exchanged for goods at the marked face value. Same with the libbies except the merchants are limited...so what. More an more merchants accept them all the time. Just like there is a limited amount of merchants that accept the many other forms of barter schemes available. That doesn't make them a rip off. No one said every merchant accepts them or must accept them.
Oh, but they are touted as being an inflation proof hedge, if that isn’t investing then what is. The fact that the claim is pure nonsense is just one more factor in the fraud.

Take for instance this outfit: http://www.merchantsbarter.com/howMBEworks.htm
What is a credit worth? Nothing, its only value is that you can exchange it for services or goods to a limited membership. At least with the liberty dollar it still retains value regardless if its used or not.
You are right about one thing, the liberty dollar which was worth nothing to start with retains its value in that it is still worthless.
You just construct strawman after strawman in order to have an argument.

No strawmen Stevie, just the facts you seem to be allergic to.

[wserra]

It amazes me that a reputable place like the Dallas Area Paranormal Society takes the Liberty Dollar.

They make good weights for the end of divining rods.

Or, rolled flat, they make great foil hats. Moreover, you can roll them flat without breaking the law, unlike with real money.

Who says they're worthless?

[.]

Sybil's list of Texas nutcakes who supposedly accept fraudulent coinage is pretty funny.

We have an assortment of vegans, dog whisperers, one-worlders, Dicky Simkanin's old bankrupt outfit, some dude named "Scruffy," some odd-ball ministries, a barber shop, a back-cracker (big surprise,) a palm reader, a bikini outfit, a dog trainer, a bee-keeper, a chimney sweep, some paranormal conspirazoids, ignoranceTax.com and someone named "self."

Even more interesting is how larded (about 10%) the list is with the people who enable, peddle and perpetuate the scam:

Lakeway Liberty Associates, Texas
Liberty Dollar of Austin, Texas
Todd McLeod Liberty Associate, Texas
LIBERTY'S OF N.TEXAS, Texas
David Cornwell Liberty Associate, Texas
Jim Henson Liberty Associate, Texas
Austin Liberty Associate, Texas
Texas Liberty Dollar, Texas
Global Liberty Associate, Texas
American Liberty Dollar Exchange of Garland, Texas
JR Liberty Associate, Texas
Lowe's Liberty Associate, Texas
People's Liberty Exchange of Texas, Texas
DRS Liberty Exchange Center, Texas
Republic Liberty Associate, Texas
liberty's of n. texas, Texas
Daniel Abboud Liberty Associate, Texas
Liberty Dollar of Austin, Texas
Strieber Liberty Associate, Texas

Then there's the high liklihood that probably half of the entities on the list, having been screwed over by accepting a Liberty Dollar at some point probably no longer do so. They are just the victims of having been reported to Von Nutball as having once accepted even a single coin, which ridiculous list can then be propagated by people like Sybil.

The most apropos entry on the list is "Lead Management Consultants."

Sort of sums it up.

[Doktor Avalanche]

Texas secession is starting to look more attractive, but only if we can get Judge Roy and the Prof out first.

[fortinbras]

The list of people who accept LDs is useless for me, if I had bought any LDs. Everyone is named Liberty something ..... not a single clue who (if any) sell bread, sell cars, sell newspapers, etc.

[SteveSy]

The list of people who accept LDs is useless for me, if I had bought any LDs. Everyone is named Liberty something ..... not a single clue who (if any) sell bread, sell cars, sell newspapers, etc.

So don't use them...no one is twisting your arm. If someone offers them to you simply refuse. It's pretty simple...oh and anyone trying to claim these are counterfeit coins is a fricking tard.

The government doesn't have the lock on the dollar sign, the word "God", "liberty", "dollar", the freedom torch, lady liberty or even all of them combined. Most of you are so drunk on the government issued koolaid you can barely see your hand in front of your face.

Norfed nor any of the people identified by the DOJ's nonsense will ever face a prison term nor will they ever get convicted of a crime. The government's plan was simple, destroy the liberty dollar by simply seizing, in other words commit theft, of everyone's warehoused silver so that people would stop using them. The government will never release the silver it seized and will keep the accusation going in to perpetuity without ever bringing it to court.

[Famspear]

I pretty much stay out of the Liberty Dollar discussions, because, well, bluntly, I find them boring. After all, they do not sufficiently relate to taxation -- and taxation is of course my raison d'être, my all-consuming life's work, the only thing I know, one-dimensional dweeb that I am. But I can't resist......

So don't use them...no one is twisting your arm. If someone offers them to you simply refuse. It's pretty simple...oh and anyone trying to claim these are counterfeit coins is a fricking tard.

The government doesn't have the lock on the dollar sign, the word "God" or "liberty". Most of you are so drunk on the koolaid you can barely see your hand in front of your face.

My, my, my.

Steve, I'd like to dedicate a song to you. Back in my radio disc jockey days, it was a song I must have played on the radio about a million times. I hated the song the first time I heard it. I hated it every time I had to play it. I still hate the song. I will always hate it. For me, the song always generated that kind of, well..... that kind of feeling......

But somehow, it seems appropriate........

Feelings, nothing more than feelings,
trying to forget my feelings of love.
Teardrops rolling down on my face,
trying to forget my feelings of love.

[ . . . . ]

Feelings, wo-o-o feelings,

[ . . . . ]

--from "Feelings," popularized by Morris Albert, c. 1975.

In more recent years "Feelings" has been best known as a target of parody and ridicule for embodying what are perceived by many as the most insipid lyrical and musical qualities of 1970s soft rock. It frequently appears on lists of "the worst songs ever" The worst song of all time, part II http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/Music/0 ... index.html cnn.com
Run for Your Life! It’s the 50 Worst Songs Ever! http://www.blender.com/guide/articles.aspx?id=786 blender.com and was included on the 1998 Rhino Records compilation album 70s Party Killers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feelings_(song)

If you've never heard Morris Albert's "Feelings," consider yourself lucky.

[SteveSy]

If you've never heard Morris Albert's "Feelings," consider yourself lucky.

Unfortunately I'm old enough to have heard it too many times.

[Cpt Banjo]

The greatest discussion of bad songs was done by Dave Barry, who invited his readers to vote for the worst song ever. The winner (which also won the award for worst lyrics) was "MacArthur Park." http://www.cs.umd.edu/~gasarch/HUMOR/worstsongs.html

The survey results were later expanded into one of the funniest books on the planet, 1997's Dave Barry's Book of Bad Songs.

[mutter]

why do you all keep refering to FRNs as dollars? They are not regardless of what is printed on them. Nor are they money. dollars are a silver coin of X amount purity and weight. I ve not seen one since.......yea that long. Money is something that has an intrinsic value. FRNs have not been money since they were no longer redeemable in gold or silver. IE since they were backed by something. somewhere in 42 USC it states FRNs are debt obligations.
We wouldnt be in this financial meltdown if we used money instead of currency.
One big reason we have an income tax at all is to pull FRNs out of circulation so they dont devalue into hyperinflation.
Whom ever it was that said they know the value of the dollar is seriously mistaken. you can read the denomination off the note but thats not its value. its value is how much it can buy. Or its purchasing power. Which is down roughly 5000% since the inception of the Federal Reserve system. In short there can be no doubt the Fed Res system is a scam designed to create bust cycles where the rich buy up the real property in the country. Unless of course you are dumb enough or neive enough to belive all those people at the Fed have been so stupid for the last 96 years that they cant figure out how to keep the currnecy system stable.

[The Operative]

why do you all keep refering to FRNs as dollars? They are not regardless of what is printed on them. Nor are they money. dollars are a silver coin of X amount purity and weight. I ve not seen one since.......yea that long. Money is something that has an intrinsic value. FRNs have not been money since they were no longer redeemable in gold or silver. IE since they were backed by something. somewhere in 42 USC it states FRNs are debt obligations.
We wouldnt be in this financial meltdown if we used money instead of currency.
One big reason we have an income tax at all is to pull FRNs out of circulation so they dont devalue into hyperinflation.
Whom ever it was that said they know the value of the dollar is seriously mistaken. you can read the denomination off the note but thats not its value. its value is how much it can buy. Or its purchasing power. Which is down roughly 5000% since the inception of the Federal Reserve system. In short there can be no doubt the Fed Res system is a scam designed to create bust cycles where the rich buy up the real property in the country. Unless of course you are dumb enough or neive enough to belive all those people at the Fed have been so stupid for the last 96 years that they cant figure out how to keep the currnecy system stable.

Mutter, you need to learn history.

Edited to fix my typo.

[mutter]

why do you all keep refering to FRNs as dollars? They are not regardless of what is printed on them. Nor are they money. dollars are a silver coin of X amount purity and weight. I ve not seen one since.......yea that long. Money is something that has an intrinsic value. FRNs have not been money since they were no longer redeemable in gold or silver. IE since they were backed by something. somewhere in 42 USC it states FRNs are debt obligations.
We wouldnt be in this financial meltdown if we used money instead of currency.
One big reason we have an income tax at all is to pull FRNs out of circulation so they dont devalue into hyperinflation.
Whom ever it was that said they know the value of the dollar is seriously mistaken. you can read the denomination off the note but thats not its value. its value is how much it can buy. Or its purchasing power. Which is down roughly 5000% since the inception of the Federal Reserve system. In short there can be no doubt the Fed Res system is a scam designed to create bust cycles where the rich buy up the real property in the country. Unless of course you are dumb enough or neive enough to belive all those people at the Fed have been so stupid for the last 96 years that they cant figure out how to keep the currnecy system stable.

Mutter, you need learn history.

Explain

[Nikki]

"history" was not necessary.

[mutter]

none of the things you listed was ---being on a gold standard.
Instead you list 1933 great depression cause as being taking us off the gold standard.
In fact when we were just colonist for over a hundred years the purchasing power of the gold and silver coin INCREASED! nor am i making the argument that there are no business down cycles on a gold standard. Cycles are the nature of everything even artificial systems like business.

[mutter]

"history" was not necessary.

was that a snipe Nikki?