Federal Fraud in the Kahre Case

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LegalEagleMan

Re: Federal Fraud in the Kahre Case

Post by LegalEagleMan »

Demosthenes wrote:
LegalEagleMan wrote:Either way the whole thing is FUBAR, he is there for one reason and one reason only, to discourage others from doing the same thing.
So what? Deterrence is a factor in every criminal prosecution.

When the DOJ only has the resources to go after a couple hundred tax deniers a year, they have to choose the biggest and flashiest cases. A $114,000,000 annual payroll most definitely qualifies as big and flashy.
Deterrence for doing what they don't want you to is different than using it as a tool to depress what is clearly a non-issue. They probably don't even care if they lose the case. "You better not do this not because you did something wrong but because we have more resources than you".

None of it makes sense unless you have a tinfoil hat on.
Demosthenes
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Re: Federal Fraud in the Kahre Case

Post by Demosthenes »

LegalEagleMan wrote:Deterrence for doing what they don't want you to is different than using it as a tool to depress what is clearly a non-issue.
Tax cheating on $114,000,000 of annual payroll is a non-issue?

And I can promise you, the DOJ and IRS most definitely care whether or not they win a criminal case...
Demo.
LegalEagleMan

Re: Federal Fraud in the Kahre Case

Post by LegalEagleMan »

Demosthenes wrote:
LegalEagleMan wrote:Deterrence for doing what they don't want you to is different than using it as a tool to depress what is clearly a non-issue.
Tax cheating on $114,000,000 of annual payroll is a non-issue?
If you are talking about paying gold eagles which is money with $50 stamped on it and reporting it as $50, yes. If you are talking about some other issue, I would have to see.
Demosthenes
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Re: Federal Fraud in the Kahre Case

Post by Demosthenes »

LegalEagleMan wrote:
Demosthenes wrote:
LegalEagleMan wrote:Deterrence for doing what they don't want you to is different than using it as a tool to depress what is clearly a non-issue.
Tax cheating on $114,000,000 of annual payroll is a non-issue?
If you are talking about paying gold eagles which is money with $50 stamped on it and reporting it as $50, yes. If you are talking about some other issue, I would have to see.
I'm talking about Kahre cheating on $114,000,000 payroll taxes. This is a tax protester forum, after all.

What the heck are you talking about?
Demo.
LegalEagleMan

Re: Federal Fraud in the Kahre Case

Post by LegalEagleMan »

Demosthenes wrote: I'm talking about Kahre cheating on $114,000,000 payroll taxes. This is a tax protester forum, after all.

What the heck are you talking about?
Well. I don't know where you have been because of the rest of us have had a wonderful discussion in this thread and the last one. You say he was cheating on payroll taxes, I have no idea what that means without more information. Is that in reference to him paying people in gold eagles with a $50 face value and using that amount in reporting requirements? Or is that some other issue?

I have no idea about his personal tax status to be honest. Most of us were talking him paying his workers in gold eagles. If for some reason you are talking about some other issue, I have no comment at this time on that.

The gold eagle issue is clearly an non-issue as far as I can see, but than again I don't have a tinfoil hat on at the moment.
Demosthenes
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Re: Federal Fraud in the Kahre Case

Post by Demosthenes »

LegalEagleMan wrote:Well. I don't know where you have been because of the rest of us have had a wonderful discussion in this thread and the last one.
I've been in Las Vegas talking to people actually involved in the case. Got home at 2 am this morning. How 'bout you?
You say he was cheating on payroll taxes, I have no idea what that means without more information. Is that in reference to him paying people in gold eagles with a $50 face value and using that amount in reporting requirements? Or is that some other issue?
It's a tax case, GASE. About whether or not he had a good faith belief in relying on the face value of the coins for tax purposes, while relying on the fair market value of the coins for every other purpose.
I have no idea about his personal tax status to be honest.
That's what the case is about.
GASE wrote:The gold eagle issue is clearly an non-issue as far as I can see, but than again I don't have a tinfoil hat on at the moment.
What gold eagle issue is there in this case besides the tax issue?
Demo.
LegalEagleMan

Re: Federal Fraud in the Kahre Case

Post by LegalEagleMan »

Demosthenes wrote: I've been in Las Vegas talking to people actually involved in the case. Got home at 2 am this morning. How 'bout you?
Not my problem. You said the defendants lawyers were not saying Kahre did anything wrong but that he had good faith belief by using the gold eagles. And the defends would be correct not to listen to you. You said it not me.
It's a tax case, GASE. About whether or not he had a good faith belief in relying on the face value of the coins for tax purposes, while relying on the fair market value of the coins for every other purpose.
Once again, mostly tinfoil stuff. It's either a 1 or a 0. As discussed in this thread and the last one there is no real way of determining such in any sane manner.
That's what the case is about.
I have no idea other than the gold eagle issue which from what I read 2 years ago with the first trial. If I remember correct they even tried a few that all they did was report what the earned in face value. If there are other issues beside that I have no comment on them. To believe that one must report "fair market value" on all your individual coins and cash would make everyone a criminal in this country, see this thread and the last thread where this was already discussed.
What gold eagle issue is there in this case besides the tax issue?
Most of this case has to do with circumstances dealing with gold eagles from I remember from the 1st trial, to be honest I haven't read all of the charges and like I said I have no comment on anything other than the gold eagle issue which seems to be a big part of the case or was in the last one.
Demosthenes
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Re: Federal Fraud in the Kahre Case

Post by Demosthenes »

LegalEagleMan wrote:Not my problem. You said the defendants lawyers were not saying Kahre did anything wrong but that he had good faith belief by using the gold eagles. And the defends would be correct not to listen to you. You said it not me.
Listen to me about what? What on earth are you babbling about?

This is a tax case. What "gold eagle" issue are you referring to?
Demo.
Arthur Rubin
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Re: Federal Fraud in the Kahre Case

Post by Arthur Rubin »

LegalEagleMan wrote:You said the defendants lawyers were not saying Kahre did anything wrong
No. The defendant's lawyers are saying that Kahre had a good-faith belief that he didn't do anything wrong. There's no evidence that the lawyers claimed that Kahre didn't do anything wrong.
Arthur Rubin, unemployed tax preparer and aerospace engineer
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LegalEagleMan

Re: Federal Fraud in the Kahre Case

Post by LegalEagleMan »

Arthur Rubin wrote:
LegalEagleMan wrote:You said the defendants lawyers were not saying Kahre did anything wrong
No. The defendant's lawyers are saying that Kahre had a good-faith belief that he didn't do anything wrong. There's no evidence that the lawyers claimed that Kahre didn't do anything wrong.
How could they? The jury is not there to decide fiscal units of the monetary system is valid or not. His lawyers are 100% correct.
Demosthenes
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Re: Federal Fraud in the Kahre Case

Post by Demosthenes »

LegalEagleMan wrote:Most of this case has to do with circumstances dealing with gold eagles from I remember from the 1st trial, to be honest I haven't read all of the charges and like I said I have no comment on anything other than the gold eagle issue which seems to be a big part of the case or was in the last one.
What "gold eagle issue" do you keep referring to?

Kahre's indictment charges for the first trial:
26:7202 - WILLFUL FAILURE TO COLLECT OR PAY OVER TAX
(Counts 1ss through 107ss)

26:7212(a) - ATTEMPTS TO INTERFERE WITH ADMINISTRATION OF INTERNAL REVENUE LAW
(Count 108ss)

18:371 & 26:7201 - CONSPIRACY TO ATTEMPT TO EVADE OR DEFEAT TAX
(Count 189ss)
The indictment charges for the current trial:
18:371 - Conspiracy
(Count 1sss )

26:7202 - Employment Tax Charges
(Counts 2sss through 50sss)

26:7212(a) - Attempts to Interfere with Administration of Internal Revenue Law
(Count 51sss)

26:7201 - Attempt to Evade or Defeat Tax
(Counts 52sss through 55sss)

26:7212(a) - Attempts to Interfere with Administration of Internal Revenue Law
(Count 56sss)
Demo.
LegalEagleMan

Re: Federal Fraud in the Kahre Case

Post by LegalEagleMan »

Demosthenes wrote: Listen to me about what? What on earth are you babbling about?

This is a tax case. What "gold eagle" issue are you referring to?
Well, you are in a thread that explains what "we", that would be everyone but "you" has been talking about. Actually there are two threads I have posted in that "we", everyone but "you" has been talking about.

I am very confused, is there another Kahre tax case that does not revolve around paying employees in gold eagle coins?

The first trial was in 2007, 4 defendants were complete acquitted, the other defendants were partial acquitted or it was a hung jury on the other counts. 107 charges if I remember correctly, he is being tried tried.

Most of the discussion in "this" thread, and the "other" thread has dealt with paying employees with gold or silver eagles for services and accounting for such payments.

PLEASE SEE THE REST OF "THIS" THREAD AND THE "OTHER" THREAD FOR MORE INFO.

Please excuse my very poor grammar two posts up. My tinfoil hat failing off my head and was blocking my vision so I could not double check my grammar and spelling errors.
LegalEagleMan

Re: Federal Fraud in the Kahre Case

Post by LegalEagleMan »

Demosthenes wrote: The indictment charges for the current trial:
Exactly. The guy was paying his employees with gold eagles which have a $50 faces value, which is major part of the discussion in "this" thread and the "other" thread.

http://alansmoneyblog.com/2007/10/14/ir ... ng-defeat/
GoldandSilverEagles

Re: Federal Fraud in the Kahre Case

Post by GoldandSilverEagles »

Number Six wrote: The larger issue in this case is the uniformity of the tax code, that there are no loopholes to circumvent the tax code.

In regards to the present tax code, what's not uniform in what it offers to Americans now?
What's your attitude toward illegal immigration
I have nothing against people wanting to better themselves and their families by coming to our country, but do not expect for us to pay for your health care, nor expect us to talk your language.
offshore tax fraud and evasion, derivatives and hedge funds, "ordinary" investments, which many insiders believe are affected by insider trading?--see Floyd Norris' column in yesterday's NYT, which adresses the problem of not regulating parts of the economy that tend to be manipulated.
I've not studied these to answer your question.
I believe that practically all these areas of the economy are connected. That the economy cries out for regulation and prosecution of all the other Madoffs out there. And that using the tax code to go after tax criminals from bottom to top might bring the US financial system back to accountability.
" In the book entitled "The Federal Zone," the IRS and the
Federal Reserve Banks are likened to two pumps, working in
tandem: the banks pump money and credit INTO the economy, and the
IRS pumps (sucks?) money and credit OUT of the economy. The real
economic reason for having an IRS, in its present configuration,
is to maintain the purchasing power of Federal Reserve Notes. If
FRN's were allowed to flood the marketplace, without a counter-
balancing force to remove them from the marketplace, we would
experience the very same hyper-inflation which plagued Germany
after World War I."

http://www.supremelaw.org/authors/mitchell/on-money.htm

Years ago, when all the crap was in the headlines about bringing down Saddam Hussein, the Patriots were touting the one thing we didnt hear in the media was what the dude was doing "behind the scenes". Word had it that he had obtained some plates for printing up his own hundred dollar FRN's. He used them for creating his own currency, and thus diluting the value of the US dollar internationally. I never verified this, but i suppose it sounds plausible.
Demosthenes
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Re: Federal Fraud in the Kahre Case

Post by Demosthenes »

LegalEagleMan wrote:
Demosthenes wrote: The indictment charges for the current trial:
Exactly. The guy was paying his employees with gold eagles which have a $50 faces value, which is major part of the discussion in "this" thread and the "other" thread.

http://alansmoneyblog.com/2007/10/14/ir ... ng-defeat/
The *only* issue at either Kahre trial - ever - has been the tax consequences.

Fess up LEM, are you trolling or are you just painfully stupid?
Demo.
LegalEagleMan

Re: Federal Fraud in the Kahre Case

Post by LegalEagleMan »

Demosthenes wrote: The *only* issue at either Kahre trial - ever - has been the tax consequences.

Fess up LEM, are you trolling or are you just painfully stupid?
Of course and a ton of it revolves around using gold eagle coins in the payment of services rendered. It seems you are trolling, the rest of us were doing just fine, talking and discussing. You even posted in the other thread yourself, do you not remember doing that?

Is there some type of medical history "we" should all know about here.
LegalEagleMan

Re: Federal Fraud in the Kahre Case

Post by LegalEagleMan »

Fess up LEM, are you trolling or are you just painfully stupid?
Yeah, I am stupid. I am not the one that can't remember posting on a subject than less than a day later can't figure out what everyone is talking about. Are you serious?

GO READ THIS THREAD AND THE OTHER THREAD TO REFRESH YOUR MEMORY.
Arthur Rubin
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Re: Federal Fraud in the Kahre Case

Post by Arthur Rubin »

LegalEagleMan wrote:
Arthur Rubin wrote:
LegalEagleMan wrote:You said the defendants lawyers were not saying Kahre did anything wrong
No. The defendant's lawyers are saying that Kahre had a good-faith belief that he didn't do anything wrong. There's no evidence that the lawyers claimed that Kahre didn't do anything wrong.
How could they? The jury is not there to decide fiscal units of the monetary system is valid or not. His lawyers are 100% correct.
Does anyone else think this is responsive to something I wrote.

As it stands, his lawyers may very well be 100% correct that Kahre did quite a few things wrong, but didn't have the intent to do so.
Arthur Rubin, unemployed tax preparer and aerospace engineer
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Demosthenes
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Re: Federal Fraud in the Kahre Case

Post by Demosthenes »

Arthur Rubin wrote:Does anyone else think this is responsive to something I wrote.

As it stands, his lawyers may very well be 100% correct that Kahre did quite a few things wrong, but didn't have the intent to do so.
Of course it isn't responsive. Literally all of his posts have been non-answers.
Demo.
GoldandSilverEagles

Re: Federal Fraud in the Kahre Case

Post by GoldandSilverEagles »

Demosthenes wrote:
GASE wrote:Kahre contracted with his workers as independent contractors (IC's).
Actually, only about 17% of the payroll worked for Kahre. The rest of the $114,000,000 payroll was done as a middle man/payroll service. As for the 17% who did work for him as ICs, there were two problems: 1) he violated minimum wage laws if he relied on the face value of the coins, and 2) he violated the state's contractor licensing requirements.
Where did you discover this tid bit? I'd like to read it myself.

BTW...federal minimum wage laws do not apply to independent contractors.