Here's your chance to blow Larken out of the water

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Post by . »

There are tell-tale signs when someone is using backwards logic: starting with a desired conclusion and then trying to justify it, instead of using the scientific method of letting evidence and logic lead us to the truth. Peoples' brains work very differently depending upon which they are doing: following the evidence or trying to bolster a foregone conclusion.
Coming from convict MulletBoy, that's hilarious.

Hard to believe that this idiot is still flogging his dead horse. Maybe he figures he's not a big enough martyr and wants another bite at the federal prison apple, ala Schiff.
All the States incorporated daughter corporations for transaction of business in the 1960s or so. - Some voice in Van Pelt's head, circa 2006.
LPC
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Re: Here's your chance to blow Larken out of the water

Post by LPC »

fuzzrabbit wrote:I know we have been over this before, but someone please tell me again what is this reference of income exemption specifically referring to? I'll pass it along. Love to hear Larken's response to it.
A general proposition like "some income is constitutionally exempt from tax" is useless without some way of identifying *what* kind of income might be exempt from tax. It's kind of like claiming that all people are entitled to due process of law, and then leaping to the conclusion that a particular person has been deprived of due process without any explanation for what is meant by due process of law and what circumstances in that particular person's case amounted to a denial of due process of law.

Or, as Justice Holmes put it, "General propositions do not decide concrete cases." Lochner v. New York, 198 U.S. 45, 75 (1905) (dissenting). See http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html#generalities for more about tax denier over-reliance on generalities and platitudes.

And the regulation on which Rose relies is not relevant to him anyway, because it's a regulation dealing with corporate earnings and profits, specifically Treas. Reg. 1.312-6(b), which reads in relevant part:

"Among the items entering into the computation of corporate earnings and profits for a particular period are all income exempted by statute, income not taxable by the Federal Government under the Constitution, as well as all items includible in gross income under section 61 or corresponding provisions of prior revenue acts."

"Earnings and profits" is defined in order to determine what is income to the shareholder, not what is income to the corporation, and the above definition does not exclude any income from any tax, but says that all income must be included in "earnings and profits" even though it is NOT subject to income tax when received by the corporation.

Rose is therefore drawing a negative inference from an irrelevant regulation.

Finally, I believe that the regulation in question is fairly old. If you checked, I think you would find that it was adopted in its present form in 1954, following the enactment of the Internal Revenue Code of 1954, and that the regulation was copied almost verbatim from similar regulations that existed under previous revenue acts back to the 1920s. All the regulation does, therefore, is reflect the fact that there have been exemptions recognized by the courts in the past, and might be other exemptions recognized in the future.

For example, there have been a few Supreme Court decisions that have found incomes that Congress did not have the power to tax. However, all of those decisions arose out of considerations of federalism (i.e., the relationship between the federal and state governments) or the separation of powers within the federal government, and all of those decisions were over-ruled by later decisions and are no longer good law. For example:

1. In Collector v. Day, 78 U.S. 113 (1870), it was held that Congress could not tax the salary of a state employee. That holding was reversed by Helvering v. Gerhardt, 304 U.S. 405 (1938).

2. Evans v. Gore, 253 U.S. 245 (1920), held that the compensation received by federal judges could not be subject to income tax because Article III of the Constitution states that the compensation of judges ‘shall not be diminished during their Continuance in Office.’ Evans v. Gore was over-ruled by O’Malley v. Woodrough, 307 U.S. 277 (1939).

3. In Pollock v. Farmers’ Loan & Trust Co., 157 U.S. 429, (1895), the Supreme Court held that interest on the debts of state and local governments could not be taxed. That holding was reversed in South Carolina v. Baker, 485 U.S. 505 (1988).

4. In Burnet v. Coronado Oil & Gas Co., 285 U.S. 393 (1932), it was held that the income from land owned by a state and leased to a private corporation could not be taxed if the lease was part of a “governmental function.” That holding was reversed by Helvering v. Mountain Producers Corp., 303 U.S. 376 (1938).

So, over the years, the Supreme Court has considered the possibility that certain types of income from government-related activities might be constitutionally exempt from income tax, but eventually decided that no such exemptions existed.

Rose would have you believe that, as soon as South Carolina v. Baker was decided (or perhaps when Helvering v. Mountain Producers was decided), the Internal Revenue Service should have amended Treas. Reg. 1.312-6(b) to eliminate the reference to constitutionally exempt income, but that's silly. After the Supreme Court decided South Carolina v. Baker, the reference to constitutionally exempt income was superfluous at worst, because the worst thing that could be said was that it no longer had any effect on the calculation of corporate earnings and profits.
Dan Evans
Foreman of the Unified Citizens' Grand Jury for Pennsylvania
(And author of the Tax Protester FAQ: evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html)
"Nothing is more terrible than ignorance in action." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
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Post by . »

And the dead horse continues to show zero signs of life.
All the States incorporated daughter corporations for transaction of business in the 1960s or so. - Some voice in Van Pelt's head, circa 2006.
Brian Rookard
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Post by Brian Rookard »

Larken wrote:As paid advocates, their JOB is to start with the desired result, and work backwards trying to justify it, which is the OPPOSITE of what a truth-seeker does.
Pot. Kettle. ... you know the rest.

And furthermore, Larken is just wrong.

Lawyers do not just start with the desired result and justify it no matter what the truth is.

Maybe Larken should read the rules of professional conduct and the court rules. Lawyers cannot make material misrepresentations. They must be fair to opposing parties. They cannot make frivolous arguments. They must disclose legal authority they know is contrary to their position. These are just some of the rules that are set up so that fairness and the truth win out. Lawyers who violate these rules can be sanctioned, have their licenses suspended, and be disbarred. I know that I CONSTANTLY think about the ethical rules ... because I know that I do NOT want to lose my license to practice law. I know so many lawyers who are very good people, and do their best. We must make GOOD arguments ... we can't make STUPID arguments. And if a lawyer makes a poor argument, it is sometimes at the behest of a client (but even then, the lawyer can only take the argument so far ... and tries to avoid stepping over the line towards sanctions).

Larken should really look in the mirror when he makes that claim. After all ... it seems that he is the one who started out with the proposition that his income is not taxable ... and then sought to justify it in any manner he could.

As has been pointed out, his central thesis that Congress can't tax what it can't regulate has been absolutely rejected by the courts in a host of cases ... but he can't be bothered to read those cases ... and he goes out of his way to ignore them.

Does that sound like a person interested in the truth?

Not to me.
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Post by Joey Smith »

Here's your chance to blow Larken out of the water
An impossibility, since Larken has already sunk and whatever remains of his position is buried deep in the sea. He went to prison, remember?

Only an idiot would even give Larken's alleged argument the time of day, but of course the TP movement is full of them.
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"The real George Washington was shot dead fairly early in the Revolution." ~ David Merrill, 9-17-2004 --- "This is where I belong" ~ Heidi Guedel, 7-1-2006 (referring to suijuris.net)
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Randall
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Re: Here's your chance to blow Larken out of the water

Post by Randall »

fuzzrabbit wrote:There are tell-tale signs when someone is using backwards logic:
starting with a desired conclusion and then trying to justify it
So we start with the conclusion "please prosecute me" and justify it with gibberish.
Florida

Post by Florida »

Joey Smith wrote:
Here's your chance to blow Larken out of the water
An impossibility, since Larken has already sunk and whatever remains of his position is buried deep in the sea. He went to prison, remember?

Only an idiot would even give Larken's alleged argument the time of day, but of course the TP movement is full of them.
How many more times is "fuzz" going to agree with us, then come back with more BS, then agree with us, then come back with more BS, before he realizes Larken is full of BS?


Like I said, its like we're Larken's test pilot for all of his crazy ideas. It's free advice for Larken to have us (mostly LPC) break down his crapolla and point out his errors for each of his stupid arguments. Instead of having himself come in under his own name, he uses the little fuzzrabbit as the guinea pig.
grammarian44

Post by grammarian44 »

Larken wrote:Incidentally, this is how lawyers are TRAINED to think. As paid advocates, their JOB is to start with the desired result, and work backwards trying to justify it, which is the OPPOSITE of what a truth-seeker does.
But what tax lawyers do most of the time is plan for clients. That means clients ask us tax questions, and we give answers. They are paying us not to advocate, but to tell them the truth, even if the truth is something they don't want to hear.

Lawyers advocate only when there is another lawyer on the other side advocating the opposite point of view, and when there is some third party--judge or jury--that will render a decision based on what at least two lawyers say on behalf of each side.

Would Larken prefer a world no one was permitted to advocate for a point of view?
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Post by Joey Smith »

fuzzrabbit wrote:Also, Larken's latest challenge asks, why does the Revenue Act of 1925, Section 217, clearly specifiy NR aliens as responsible for reporting domestic income (under provisions of 262) while not saying ALL are to include it? He thinks it's "inclusio unius, exclusio alterius." Simply overapplying a reg.--right?
Who cares what Larken's latest challenge is? He is a nut, he got blown out of the water on his last position and went to jail, his wife went to jail, he doesn't have a law degree, he doesn't have the foggiest idea how the tax laws work, he has one of the most goofy interpretations of the tax code that I've ever heard of, the courts don't agree with Larken, the courts sent Larken's buddy Tom Clayton who argued 861 to jail, and the courts have imposed literally tens-of-thousands (if not into the hundreds-of-thousands by now) dollars in fines and sanctions on those who have argued Larken's goofy position.

Now after all that, why in the world would anytime with two brain cells give Larken the time'o'day on any tax issue? I certainly will not.

When Larken wins one, come back and let us know. Until then, if you want to help Larken in mentally playing with himself on issues on which he has been proven totally wrong time after time after time after time after time, then feel free to do so.

Please feel free pass this message back along to him along with the message that nobody at Quatloos even begins take him seriously, just like no accredited legal, tax, or constitutional scholar takes him seriously.
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Post by . »

Not to mention that "please prosecute me" MulletBoy, when given the chance (actually, three of them) during his trial to argue the legal merits of his 861 nonsense, didn't. He fell back on the "I'm too stupid to understand plain English" Cheek defense.

Then there's the fact that nobody other than whack-jobs and legal historians care what the Revenue Act of 1925 says because it ain't current law.
All the States incorporated daughter corporations for transaction of business in the 1960s or so. - Some voice in Van Pelt's head, circa 2006.
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wserra
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Post by wserra »

fuzzrabbit wrote:Larken's latest challenge
Would that be his "Other Other Operation"?

What a joke.
"A wise man proportions belief to the evidence."
- David Hume
LPC
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Post by LPC »

fuzzrabbit wrote:Also, Larken's latest challenge asks, ...
Sometimes the precedents that are most directly on point can't be found in court opinions.
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's left arm off]
ARTHUR: Now stand aside, worthy adversary.
BLACK KNIGHT: 'Tis but a scratch.
ARTHUR: A scratch? Your arm's off!
BLACK KNIGHT: No, it isn't.
ARTHUR: [Pointing to arm on ground] Well, what's that, then?
BLACK KNIGHT: I've had worse.
ARTHUR: You liar!
BLACK KNIGHT: Come on, you pansy!
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's right arm off]
ARTHUR: Victory is mine!
[kneeling]
We thank Thee Lord, that in Thy mer--
BLACK KNIGHT: Hah!
[kick]
Come on, then.
ARTHUR: What?
BLACK KNIGHT: Have at you!
[kick]
ARTHUR: Eh. You are indeed brave, Sir Knight, but the fight is mine.
BLACK KNIGHT: Oh, had enough, eh?
ARTHUR: Look, you stupid bastard. You've got no arms left.
BLACK KNIGHT: Yes, I have.
ARTHUR: Look!
BLACK KNIGHT: Just a flesh wound.
[kick]
ARTHUR: Look, stop that.
BLACK KNIGHT: Chicken!
[kick]
Chickennn!
ARTHUR: Look, I'll have your leg.
[kick]
Right!
[whop]
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's right leg off]
BLACK KNIGHT: Right. I'll do you for that!
ARTHUR: You'll what?
BLACK KNIGHT: Come here!
ARTHUR: What are you going to do, bleed on me?
BLACK KNIGHT: I'm invincible!
ARTHUR: You're a looney.
BLACK KNIGHT: The Black Knight always triumphs! Have at you! Come on, then.
[whop]
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's last leg off]
BLACK KNIGHT: Oh? All right, we'll call it a draw.
Dan Evans
Foreman of the Unified Citizens' Grand Jury for Pennsylvania
(And author of the Tax Protester FAQ: evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html)
"Nothing is more terrible than ignorance in action." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
Florida

Post by Florida »

Please feel free pass this message back along to him along with the message that nobody at Quatloos even begins take him seriously, just like no accredited legal, tax, or constitutional scholar takes him seriously.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Tell him I said "hi" too.
notorial dissent
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Post by notorial dissent »

You can also add, that even as low comedy he fails miserably.
Doktor Avalanche
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Post by Doktor Avalanche »

CaptainKickback wrote:A technical note - the best way to blow a small ship out of the water involves a nice 5 kilo limpet mine, or a magnetically attached 5 kilo shaped charge.
Oooh, I love playing with limpet mines!
The laissez-faire argument relies on the same tacit appeal to perfection as does communism. - George Soros
Doktor Avalanche
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Posts: 1767
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:20 pm
Location: Yuba City, CA

Post by Doktor Avalanche »

LPC wrote:
fuzzrabbit wrote:Also, Larken's latest challenge asks, ...
Sometimes the precedents that are most directly on point can't be found in court opinions.
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's left arm off]
ARTHUR: Now stand aside, worthy adversary.
BLACK KNIGHT: 'Tis but a scratch.
ARTHUR: A scratch? Your arm's off!
BLACK KNIGHT: No, it isn't.
ARTHUR: [Pointing to arm on ground] Well, what's that, then?
BLACK KNIGHT: I've had worse.
ARTHUR: You liar!
BLACK KNIGHT: Come on, you pansy!
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's right arm off]
ARTHUR: Victory is mine!
[kneeling]
We thank Thee Lord, that in Thy mer--
BLACK KNIGHT: Hah!
[kick]
Come on, then.
ARTHUR: What?
BLACK KNIGHT: Have at you!
[kick]
ARTHUR: Eh. You are indeed brave, Sir Knight, but the fight is mine.
BLACK KNIGHT: Oh, had enough, eh?
ARTHUR: Look, you stupid bastard. You've got no arms left.
BLACK KNIGHT: Yes, I have.
ARTHUR: Look!
BLACK KNIGHT: Just a flesh wound.
[kick]
ARTHUR: Look, stop that.
BLACK KNIGHT: Chicken!
[kick]
Chickennn!
ARTHUR: Look, I'll have your leg.
[kick]
Right!
[whop]
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's right leg off]
BLACK KNIGHT: Right. I'll do you for that!
ARTHUR: You'll what?
BLACK KNIGHT: Come here!
ARTHUR: What are you going to do, bleed on me?
BLACK KNIGHT: I'm invincible!
ARTHUR: You're a looney.
BLACK KNIGHT: The Black Knight always triumphs! Have at you! Come on, then.
[whop]
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's last leg off]
BLACK KNIGHT: Oh? All right, we'll call it a draw.
The more I see that, the funnier it gets.
The laissez-faire argument relies on the same tacit appeal to perfection as does communism. - George Soros
Brian Rookard
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Post by Brian Rookard »

Doktor Avalanche wrote:
CaptainKickback wrote:A technical note - the best way to blow a small ship out of the water involves a nice 5 kilo limpet mine, or a magnetically attached 5 kilo shaped charge.
Oooh, I love playing with limpet mines!
Mr. Limpet???

Image
Doktor Avalanche
Asst Secretary, the Dept of Jesters
Posts: 1767
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:20 pm
Location: Yuba City, CA

Post by Doktor Avalanche »

Brian Rookard wrote:
Doktor Avalanche wrote:
CaptainKickback wrote:A technical note - the best way to blow a small ship out of the water involves a nice 5 kilo limpet mine, or a magnetically attached 5 kilo shaped charge.
Oooh, I love playing with limpet mines!
Mr. Limpet???

Image
LOL...close! This was actually more what I had in mind:

http://www.specwargear.com/images/dive-mine-1.jpg

Why does Don Knotts bear a striking resemblance to Mick Jagger?
The laissez-faire argument relies on the same tacit appeal to perfection as does communism. - George Soros
Joey Smith
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Posts: 895
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:57 pm

Post by Joey Smith »

fuzzrabbit wrote:Hey, Joey--would you please put this thread out of its misery?
No.

Have you passed along our thoughts to Mullethead yet?

Image

Business in the front, party in the back!
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"The real George Washington was shot dead fairly early in the Revolution." ~ David Merrill, 9-17-2004 --- "This is where I belong" ~ Heidi Guedel, 7-1-2006 (referring to suijuris.net)
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silversopp

Post by silversopp »

Joey Smith wrote:
fuzzrabbit wrote:Hey, Joey--would you please put this thread out of its misery?
No.

Have you passed along our thoughts to Mullethead yet?

Image

Business in the front, party in the back!
WOW! He looks just like this guy who drives around in a Camaro. He hangs out at the high school when classes get let out to pick fights with the freshmen and try to pick up underaged girls.