Outbreak of idiocy in Indiana

[Brandybuck]

The flip side is that as long as we keep allowing hordes of poor illegals in, we continue to act as a safety valve for all the Third World sh*tholes, who can then get away with never facing up to their economic and political problems.

Translation: Your home country is a Third World sh*thole, so for your own good we're going to send you back...

[LDE]

The thing about immigration policy is that this is a really complicated issue but people tend to reduce it to simple principles, often reflecting their ideology.

The people who complain about being displaced are full of it. There's nothing stopping them from applying for the very same jobs. They'll have to lower their wages they demand, but they aren't excluded. What they're really complaining about is competition. Someone has come in and outbid their labor. They want an unskilled job at skilled wages.

Well, what about my ex-housemate who earned professional wages as a meat cutter. His wife had died after a long battle with cancer and now he could no longer support his two kids because what had been sufficient income had been undercut by a largely illegal work force. Your statement presumes it's okay for American labor standards to sink to Latin American levels. The beneficiary is Wall Street, which has sucked the assets out of small companies through mergers and encouraged the importation of illegal labor to destroy the standard of living of the working class. Meat hasn't gotten any cheaper, but the industry is rife with injuries, and we've seen many deaths from contaminated meat. The ultimate result will be a work force that earns China-level wages ruled by a handful of plutocrats. That's fine with most economists, who disproportionately work for big capital. It's not okay with me.

The flip side is that as long as we keep allowing hordes of poor illegals in, we continue to act as a safety valve for all the Third World sh*tholes, who can then get away with never facing up to their economic and political problems.

By allowing the poor and indigent from those countries to come and stay here en masse, we continue to enable the ruling class in those contries to maintain the status quo. They would shriek and scream like b*tches if we got serious and sealed our borders, beacuse they know that within a few years the poor would rise up toss them out of power, redistribute wealth and fertilize the fields with their blood.

We're mostly talking about Mexico here. Though Mexico is going through a rough period, it's too simplistic to dismiss it as a "Third World sh*thole." The people who migrate here looking for work are not coming from the more affluent, industrialized areas such as the Basin of Mexico. They're mostly from rural areas on the economic margin. Nor are they necessarily unskilled labor. Many do highly specialized construction work. When the poor rise up as you describe, the U.S. interferes in their countries and tries to suppress such revolutions, as in the two U.S.-backed attempted coups against Chavez in Venezuela (who was democratically elected after the failure of conservative, capitalist governments to deliver on promises of prosperity). The U.S. is complicit in the failure of Latin America to develop and it's a fantasy that immigration can be solved by big, mean Uncle Sam dictating terms to the governments to the south. Funny how diplomacy is never attempted. American big business has an interest in keeping Latin America down and in continued immigration with little restriction.

As for "sealing the borders": (1) It's not feasible. Ever drive through extreme southern New Mexico on IH-10? It's a total wasteland, no vegetation or water. Where would you get the water to make concrete? And by now it's an old joke that the only available labor to build the wall would be Mexican illegals. We're not going to destroy agriculture in central New Mexico or west Texas by returning water to the Rio Grande, which is a dry ditch through much of its length much of the time. (2) It's too late. For nearly two decades, in the wake of NAFTA, both countries have developed the border region into a porous zone with a unified economy and turned the Rio Grande Valley, once a desolate no man's land, into a densely populated strip of boom towns that is home to hundreds of thousands of people. Many families have members and property on both sides of the border, and some hold dual citizenship. You can't just build a wall through their backyards. (3) It won't do any good, since half the illegal immigrants from Mexico arrive legally and overstay their visa.

Your assertion that California could "ship" half a million immigrants is not only offensive (people aren't cargo) but ludicrous. If you could direct the movement of immigrants you could stop them from entering in the first place, and if your economy could function without them it would be doing so. How many new law-enforcement personnel would your near-bankrupt state have to hire to accomplish this feat? Same at the federal level: How many new Border Patrol agents would be needed to deport a minimum of 13 million people? Posers who don't live anywhere near the border fantasize about building the equivalent of a vast East German wall through the area without any thought to the cost. This is one thing that leads to the widespread contempt for federal power in Texas. Ideologues think that people can be shipped like freight, that property can be seized without regard for the inhabitants, that a thriving economic zone can just be done away with, as if the people who live in America's 2nd largest state are subject to the whims of faraway technocrats. When Pat Buchanan campaigned in South Texas, he was met with, "We love you, Pat, but we don't want a wall in our backyards."

[Judge Roy Bean]

I hate to mention it, but we really do need legal immigrant workers who pay into the social security and medicare system. Immigrants tend to be younger and thus will make a larger contribution over time. The working population of the US is aging and there aren't sufficient workers coming into the SS and Medicare pools to sustain it.

That's one of the reasons so many seemingly hard-line conservatives aren't on the bandwagon with reducing legal immigration; they've seen the handwriting on the economic wall, and without an influx of working immigrants the insolvency of the system will come sooner than they'd like to admit.

[Brandybuck]

Well, what about my ex-housemate who earned professional wages as a meat cutter. His wife had died after a long battle with cancer and now he could no longer support his two kids because what had been sufficient income had been undercut by a largely illegal work force. Your statement presumes it's okay for American labor standards to sink to Latin American levels. The beneficiary is Wall Street, which has sucked the assets out of small companies through mergers and encouraged the importation of illegal labor to destroy the standard of living of the working class. Meat hasn't gotten any cheaper, but the industry is rife with injuries, and we've seen many deaths from contaminated meat. The ultimate result will be a work force that earns China-level wages ruled by a handful of plutocrats. That's fine with most economists, who disproportionately work for big capital. It's not okay with me.

Your argument also applies to technology. Look up Luddites. I suspect that the computer has ultimately destroyed more domestic jobs over the last half century than has immigration. No it's not the same thing, because you can easily point to jobs the computer has created. Immigration has also created jobs, but they are much harder to point to. So instead we go running off crying to the government about the brown scourge stealing our jobs.

I didn't say there weren't any problems in the short term. Any change causes disruption, but policies preventing this disruption invariably cause greater disruptions in the long term. The "epidemic" of illegal immigration can be traced to the complete shutdown of legal Mexican immigration. People are going to escape that "Third World sh*thole" no matter what, and our policies have made sure that only the lawbreakers will.

[Farmer Giles]

A couple years ago I was stopped by a cop in New York for rolling through a flashing red light in a suburban town. He ran my i.d. which turned up an unpaid ticket from 20 years ago, of a similar issue. NY cops played hard ball, because of that one traffic violation in the data base. The cop handcuffed me, gave me a ride to headquarters, where he asked me a bunch of questions, but released me on payment of a couple hundred dollars deposit. My brother-in law, a law and order type, thought it was outrageous overkill. In a lot of other states, the cops are more lenient especially when there are kids, a wife or other witnesses around. The get tough approach is effective, especially with illegal protestors. If their names get published in the local paper, this has a definite deterence.

that arrest was totally illegal. In PA for example all petty traffic offenses expire in 3 years: further prosecution is absolutely barred. Im sure NY has a similar law. And he had no right to take you in unless you consented, because you could pay the fine on the spot under the rules of procedure. and besides, your car was probably worth more than 200 so there was a surety anyway.

excessive force
unlawful detention
illegal arrest
colorable acts
federal civil rights violation


but apparently you approve of all this so no harm done.

[Nikki]

VERY high on the North side of Broad Street.

I don't get high. I get drunk.

Compared to the students staggering across Broad Street, you are not drunk.

A little-known fact: The Athens government reached an agreement with the various imbibable purveyors that the police will only do ID validation sweeps before 6:00 PM -- which means that most of the underaged students don't start drinking until after dinner.

[Number Six]

A couple years ago I was stopped by a cop in New York for rolling through a flashing red light in a suburban town. He ran my i.d. which turned up an unpaid ticket from 20 years ago, of a similar issue. NY cops played hard ball, because of that one traffic violation in the data base. The cop handcuffed me, gave me a ride to headquarters, where he asked me a bunch of questions, but released me on payment of a couple hundred dollars deposit. My brother-in law, a law and order type, thought it was outrageous overkill. In a lot of other states, the cops are more lenient especially when there are kids, a wife or other witnesses around. The get tough approach is effective, especially with illegal protestors. If their names get published in the local paper, this has a definite deterence.

that arrest was totally illegal. In PA for example all petty traffic offenses expire in 3 years: further prosecution is absolutely barred. Im sure NY has a similar law. And he had no right to take you in unless you consented, because you could pay the fine on the spot under the rules of procedure. and besides, your car was probably worth more than 200 so there was a surety anyway.

excessive force
unlawful detention
illegal arrest
colorable acts
federal civil rights violation


but apparently you approve of all this so no harm done.

It was late at night, I was coming back from a judge's funeral in the mid-west, what would have been a legal procedure, in your opinion to fight what I agree was a significant violation? When I found myself in court in Bedford, NY, the judge asked me if I wanted a trial...

[Number Six]

The flip side is that as long as we keep allowing hordes of poor illegals in, we continue to act as a safety valve for all the Third World sh*tholes, who can then get away with never facing up to their economic and political problems.

By allowing the poor and indigent from those countries to come and stay here en masse, we continue to enable the ruling class in those contries to maintain the status quo. They would shriek and scream like b*tches if we got serious and sealed our borders, beacuse they know that within a few years the poor would rise up toss them out of power, redistribute wealth and fertilize the fields with their blood.

I agree with this. But there are political prisoners who would be fed to the wolves--or literally to crocodiles as my Cuban-American landlord so colorfully described Castro's liquidation of his enemies. So those people can appeal for asylum. Some argue that the CIA actually fomented civil war and upheaval in countries of immigrants who have in a Karmic twist, come to the U.S. for rights that eluded them before.


The same applies to illegally protesting taxes. Those in that position have to make ever more convoluted arguments about the rationale for their not filing. Their anger and rage at the cruel treatment at the hands of the government becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[wserra]

that arrest was totally illegal. In PA for example all petty traffic offenses expire in 3 years: further prosecution is absolutely barred.

From Number Six's description, s/he failed to appear, either to answer the summons or to pay a fine - it's not clear which. Please cite the law which says that traffic offenses "expire" under those circumstances. Please note that this is not either a speedy trial or statute of limitations situation, since apparently Number Six failed to appear.

Im sure NY has a similar law.

Then I'm sure you can cite it.

And he had no right to take you in unless you consented, because you could pay the fine on the spot under the rules of procedure.

What "rule" is that?

and besides, your car was probably worth more than 200 so there was a surety anyway.

Therefore, if you're driving a Ferrari F50, you can walk away from virtually anything.

excessive force
unlawful detention
illegal arrest
colorable acts
federal civil rights violation

And I'm sure that you can cite a case with facts similar to Number Six's which resulted in a successful suit for those violations.

Or perhaps being a jerk is bad, but not actionable.

[Number Six]

I had no idea I could have sued for all those things with the right attorney.

The basis of the cop's action was one ticket from around 1990 of a stop sign violation in New Lebanon, NY. An unpaid ticket... It was in the cop's computer system, but the town clerk in New Lebanon had to do a research to dig up the ticket. I had to make an appointment for a hearing with the judge in that town--and I had to do that before I appeared for the suspended privalege to drive in NY issue in Bedford.

[LPC]

Im sure NY has a similar law.

May I cite you as an authority in the defense of the malpractice/UPL action against me?

[wserra]

I had no idea I could have sued for all those things with the right attorney.

That's OK. Neither did the attorney.

The basis of the cop's action was one ticket from around 1990 of a stop sign violation in New Lebanon, NY. An unpaid ticket...

Which resulted in an automatic suspension of your driving privilege - and, if you had a NY license, that as well. The cop was a prick. But if you could sue people for being pricks, we'd need a courthouse on every block.

[Farmer Giles]

The flip side is that as long as we keep allowing hordes of poor illegals in, we continue to act as a safety valve for all the Third World sh*tholes, who can then get away with never facing up to their economic and political problems.

By allowing the poor and indigent from those countries to come and stay here en masse, we continue to enable the ruling class in those contries to maintain the status quo. They would shriek and scream like b*tches if we got serious and sealed our borders, beacuse they know that within a few years the poor would rise up toss them out of power, redistribute wealth and fertilize the fields with their blood.

Actually its the opposite. If immigration laws were abolished tomorrow none of these foreign countries could last 2 years, since everyone would just leave for America. especially the middle class and other producers. think "brain-drain"... and "muscle drain", and "creative drain", "enterprising drain".

besides, the worst part about immigration laws is the imposition and exclusion on nationals of friendly countries, like the EU, the British Dominions, East Asian tigers etc. how many families, pregnant women, children from parents, torn apart by these senseless and abitrary restrictions. How does someone just go from "good" to "bad" overnight by pure buracracy?

Americans are cousins to the people of these countries and the spectacle of an "illegal european" is utterly ridiculous. there is so much room and space just on this continent alone.

the logic behind immigration laws taken to its full extent would see closed borders between U.S. themselves, or every county. try metering the sidewalks while youre at it.

[Number Six]

You sure have a lot of time on your hand to shoot the breeze, Farmer. pm me and we'll find a farm up here in New England for you: Guaranteed around $10 an hour, and free housing to boot. Work starts soon!

[Farmer Giles]

You sure have a lot of time on your hand to shoot the breeze, Farmer. pm me and we'll find a farm up here in New England for you: Guaranteed around $10 an hour, and free housing to boot. Work starts soon!

i do, im recovering from surgery and stuck for a while. id take you up on the offer later, if it was serious. i love farm work. spent the last several years living in Spain and Portugal doing permaculture.

[LDE]

If immigration laws were abolished tomorrow none of these foreign countries could last 2 years, since everyone would just leave for America.

You really think everyone in, say, Uruguay, is itching to leave family and friends behind and relocate to a new country with different language and cuisine just because they could earn more money here? Apparently your time overseas didn't do much to improve your arrogant xenophobia.

besides, the worst part about immigration laws is the imposition and exclusion on nationals of friendly countries, like the EU, the British Dominions, East Asian tigers etc

Immigration quotas by country are a thing of the past. People don't want to move here from the EU, Japan, Australia, Singapore, etc. because those countries are rich and have a lifestyle at least as comfortable as our own. In your time in Spain and Portugal, did you really get the idea that the only reason the inhabitants of those nations haven't emigrated en masse to the U.S. is that supposedly the government won't let them in? What about the Azores, whose inhabitants are allowed to migrate here freely by treaty (in exchange for an American air base in the islands)? Under your hypothesis, the islands should be empty by now, with their entire population having left for the States.

[Farmer Giles]

If immigration laws were abolished tomorrow none of these foreign countries could last 2 years, since everyone would just leave for America.

You really think everyone in, say, Uruguay, is itching to leave family and friends behind and relocate to a new country with different language and cuisine just because they could earn more money here? Apparently your time overseas didn't do much to improve your arrogant xenophobia.

Everyone might in Gaza.

besides, the worst part about immigration laws is the imposition and exclusion on nationals of friendly countries, like the EU, the British Dominions, East Asian tigers etc

Immigration quotas by country are a thing of the past. People don't want to move here from the EU, Japan, Australia, Singapore, etc. because those countries are rich and have a lifestyle at least as comfortable as our own. In your time in Spain and Portugal, did you really get the idea that the only reason the inhabitants of those nations haven't emigrated en masse to the U.S. is that supposedly the government won't let them in? What about the Azores, whose inhabitants are allowed to migrate here freely by treaty (in exchange for an American air base in the islands)? Under your hypothesis, the islands should be empty by now, with their entire population having left for the States.

there are probably millions of "illegal europeans" living in America. Im talking about the day-to-day reality of the immigration laws affect on people. yes more people would travel and stay more often if the barriers were lowered, and a lot more money would flow. yes i have personally seen many hardships and difficulties that europeans and other well-off people encounter with american immigration. america has some of the most oppressive and reactionary people in the West.

and what I know from my experience in Europe is that immigration for an American or other Westerner including millions of Latin Americans is a mere formality. The Spanish Supreme Court just ruled that the entire penalty for "irregular status" is a money fine and they cant deport you either. Meanwhile youd have to be pretty noticable for anyone to care about your immigration status. No 10 year bans like in the USA.

B

[Lambkin]

Returning to Indiana,

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/22813692/detail.html

Pendleton police have seized a license plate of a so-called "sovereign citizen," a growing group of Indiana residents who claim to be outside the law.

Police said the plate was going to be placed on a vehicle by a self-proclaimed diplomat in lieu of a state-issued plate.

"was going to be placed" sounds like it was somehow intercepted before it hit the streets.

Pendleton Police Chief Marc Farrer called such proclamations both illegitimate and illegal, and said that anyone driving with such plates will be ticketed and have their vehicle towed. The plate was turned over to the FBI.

The Secretary of State's office said about 10 people every month ask to put a seal on a document so that they can claim freedom from taxes.

[webhick]

The Secretary of State's office said about 10 people every month ask to put a seal on a document so that they can claim freedom from taxes.

Yeah, but are they the same ten people? I'd post their pictures at the front desk and track the dates and times they came and and were told "no", if only so I can advocate implementing a small fee for multiple offenders. It's like they'd be willingly placing a losing bet every single time - and they'd come back for more! To make it more funny, they should used loaded dice that always lands on snake-eyes.

"Oh, you want a seal on that pile of crap? First, you'll have to pay a $10 fee for me to roll the dice of fate and we'll see whether or not we can do what you want."

[Demosthenes]

"Oh, you want a seal on that pile of crap? First, you'll have to pay a $10 fee for me to roll the dice of fate and we'll see whether or not we can do what you want."

I can totally see this as a funny scene in a book. Satan's bureaucrats run the DMV...