Cpt Banjo wrote:(I predicted correctly: you did try and weasel out by changing the subject).
I'm sorry you think so, my perception was that you changed the subject and I was trying to bat you away with a weak reed so we could get back to the subject. I do believe I said I was here to have fun. Oh, do you subscribe to any norms of debate?
John J. Bulten wrote:I know Congress can tax any accession to wealth they can tax. And Constitutional income necessarily means "any accession to wealth they can tax". Just observing that something is an accession to wealth does not prove Congress can tax it. Sorry.
It's entirely self-evident that they can tax that that they can tax, that they can tax profits that they can tax, and that they can't tax profits that they can't tax. That was the subject you seized on.
To this entirely axiomatic observation, you apparently imported the proposition that "all accessions are taxable". You bear the burden of proof, and Glenshaw and Kowalski don't carry it, as already adverted. But you threw the burden of proof to me for the negation of your proposition, and I'll admit I fell for it.
Since you wanted the Constitution on taxation, everyone knows the Constitution only makes one prohibition and two qualifications about taxation, so I spit that out, and maybe it wasn't on point. I threw Steward v Davis in because I know it affirms the unconstitutionality of taxing state exports. The only place the Constitution otherwise talks somewhat explicitly about what Congress can't tax is the 10th Amendment, but other amendments implicitly restrict Congressional power to tax as well.
Similarly, I only said stock dividends were "apparent accession to wealth". Now getting back to the point, it might be observed that there was and remains heated disagreement about what constitutes profit or accession to wealth. And, there was and remains heated disagreement about what is within Congressional jurisdiction to tax.
But getting around that Banjo-driven digression, here are the subjects that might interest you IMHO:
1. Quatloos supporters do not wish to subscribe to any normative standard for their often-anonymous posts, they have much more fun just back-and-forthing all day. I made this a threshold condition for real debate. Banjo, by asking questions in a nonanswer-based forum, has the burden of demonstrating his questions are real rather than flip, if he wants real rather than flip answers.
2. The thread topic is statutory wages. I gave a summary on LH, was quoted here, and then defended my summary by quoting the law. Banjo has not taken the burden of either disputing my selection of law, nor disputing my summary thereof. (Hint: this one requires you to discuss that messy topic, "inclusion".)
3. I then made a summary position statement: "There is no law which demonstrates that the income derived from payment received within a union state for work performed on or after 3/1/1913 is equal to the value received less expenses." Banjo has not taken the burden of finding a simple counterexample. (Hint: Section 61 doesn't carry it, as already adverted.)
4. I made some self-evident side observations (unconsciously recalling McCulloch, below) to reinforce my point that there is no law about what Congress can't tax. This side trail was seized upon by Banjo, apparently to reinforce the belief "all accessions are taxable", but without taking the burden of proving this unstated assumption.
5. Banjo demanded certain answers about "any accession", which I haphazardly answered by throwing out some borderline accession cases. Banjo pretends I changed the subject. Well, if you mean the unintentional temporary confusion of "accession to wealth" with "wealth", perhaps. But we are a couple subjects removed from the real subject already, and there's another level too, because:
6. It appears Banjo really wanted to get closer to the subject by talking about, not "any accessions", but the particular accessions from value received for labor less expenses. Banjo did not, of course, admit the difference between the question and the potential intent, but it's moot. The burden of proof is on those who say all accessions are taxable, not on those who say no law makes an accession taxable.
I have professed my allegiance to the written law, shown the laws I rely on, summarized them properly, and avowed the nonexistence of any contrary law.
If Banjo wants me to answer objections to his unstated assumption, he ought to first provide:
- his standards for how true answers are arrived at
- any errors in my definition of statutory wages
- any law that converts American post-1913 nonfederal pay into income
However, even though he ought strictly to provide those, I will be even more gracious and throw out a couple more answers which address, as well as I can understand him, what he's getting at.
- Certain objects cannot be taxed by Congress without apportionment, such as land and people and stock dividends and exercise of Constitutional rights.
- Certain objects can be taxed without apportionment, such as privileges associated with exercise of Constitutional rights (for example, licenses or charters).
- The activity of working for pay in itself, if not associated with any privileges or federal nexus, is a Constitutional right and cannot be taxed without apportionment.
First see the inalienable rights in the Declaration and their reference in the 5th and 14th Amendments, as well as the restrictions of the 10th. Now consider:
1. "The liberty thus guaranteed ... denotes not merely freedom from bodily restraint but also the right of the individual to contract, to engage in any of the common occupations of life ...." —Justice James McReynolds, 1923 (Meyer v Nebraska, 262 US 390, 399)
2. "Included in the right of personal liberty and the right of private property— partaking of the nature of each— is the right to make contracts ... of personal employment, by which labor and other services are exchanged for money or other forms of property." —Justice Mahlon Pitney, 1915 (Coppage v Kansas, 236 US 1, 14)
3. "The first amendment, which the Fourteenth makes applicable to the states, declares that 'Congress shall make no law ....' It could hardly be denied that a tax laid specifically on the exercise of those freedoms would be unconstitutional .... A state may not impose a charge for the enjoyment of a right granted by the federal constitution." —Justice William Douglas, 1943 (Jones v Opelika, Murdock v Pennsylvania, 319 US 105, 108, 113)
4. "The power of the state in that respect is not unlimited, and one of the limitations is that it may not impose conditions which require the relinquishment of constitutional rights." —Justice George Sutherland, 1926 (Frost v California, 271 US 583, 593, 594)
5. "To take over to its control any one of the great number of subjects of public interest, jurisdiction of which the states have never parted with, ... by a so-called tax ... would be to break down all constitutional limitation of the powers of Congress." —Chief Justice William Taft, 1922 (Bailey v Drexel, 259 US 20, 38)
6. "It has been well said that 'the property which every man has in his own labor, as it is the original foundation of all other property, so it is the most sacred and inviolable. The patrimony of the poor man lies in the strength and dexterity of his own hands, and to hinder his employing this strength and dexterity in what manner he thinks proper, without injury to his neighbor, is a plain violation of this most sacred property.' ... The right to follow any of the common occupations of life is an inalienable right, it was formulated as such under the phrase 'pursuit of happiness' in the declaration of independence." —Justice Samuel Miller, 1884 (Butchers v Crescent 111 US 746, 757, 762, quoting Adam Smith)
7. "All subjects over which the sovereign power of a state extends, are objects of taxation; but those over which it does not extend, are, upon the soundest principles, exempt from taxation. This proposition may almost be pronounced self-evident. The sovereignty of a state extends to everything which exists by its own authority, or is introduced by its permission." —Chief Justice John Marshall, 1819 (McCulloch v Maryland, 17 US 316, 427, 429)
So right to work is a 5th, 10th, and 14th Constitutional right (1, 2, 6); and such Constitutional rights are inalienable by tax (3, 4, 5, 6, 7). They cannot be taxed indirectly, and due to apportionment they can only alienate the state, not the individual, when taxed directly.
Let me add that Paul shows an abysmal civics education, even for an IRS worker, when he says 1776 has zero to do with the Constitution (or perhaps he just shows a typical public-school education). The Constitution's authors gave momentous and explicit weight to the 1776 independence of a certain nation in the twelfth (inclusive) year counting back from the year 1787 of their and our Lord. I'll leave Paul to research which nation and Lord was meant.