Harvester cites a case

LPC
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Re: Harvester cites a case

Post by LPC »

wserra wrote:From what I see, the problem really isn't quoting dicta instead of a holding. Dicta are frequently quite useful in the real life practice of law, and tend to be inaccurate only when subsequent law develops a line of reasoning past the original case.
In my second year of law school, one of the professors asked a question about something in an opinion and one of classmates very assuredly said, "That's just dicta," to which the professor replied, "But they said it, didn't they?"

The line between "holding" and "dicta" is not so clear as lawyers sometimes claim. The core of the holding (e.g., that the plaintiff wins) is largely meaningless without knowing *why* the plaintiff wins. And yet, in explaining the reasons for the decision, a court might say things that can't be taken too far from the facts of the actual case.

To me, the real issue is this: Under all the circumstances of the decision, such as the nature of the issues argued, the facts, and the care that the court used in explaining it's reasoning, how much reliance can we place on that particular statement as a general rule of law?

Take for example, the statement from Stratton’s Independence, Ltd. v. Howbert, 231 U.S. 399, 415 (1913), that “the earnings of the human brain and hand when unaided by capital ... are commonly dealt with as income in legislation.” That statement is "dicta" by any definition, because the decision itself had nothing whatsoever to do with wages or earned income, and yet I would say that the statement can be relied on and should be relied on.

The actual issue before the court was whether a mining company was entitled to a deduction for mineral depletion in calculating "income." The claim was that the extraction of ore was not entirely "income" because, once the ore was extracted and sold, it was gone and could never be replaced, and so it was more like capital than income. The court replied that the same could be said of the time and effort spent by workers, and yet what they earn is usually considered to be income.

One of the things that I find persuasive about the quotation is the casual certainty it conveys. It briefly and curtly dismissed an argument with an "everyone knows" kind of statement. And it was not about an arcane issue of law, but about the treatment of the wages that are earned by most Americans, so it was an issue that all of the judges on the court would be acquainted with.

So it might be dicta, but it is dicta that can be cited and relied upon, and it has been cited and relied upon.

Which illustrates one of the reasons that I have found law to be so interesting. It's more than logic and analysis, and often encompasses judgments and a kind of artistry.
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Re: Harvester cites a case

Post by LPC »

Harvester wrote:You deny that the Federal Reserve is a private cartel?
Well, it's not private, and it's not a cartel, so I'm denying it, yes.
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Re: Harvester cites a case

Post by Harvester »

Is it a government agency?
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Re: Harvester cites a case

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Harvester wrote:Is it a government agency?
The following is a necessarily simplified explanation of the structure of the Federal Reserve system.

The Board of Governors, which controls the Federal Reserve system, is most definitely a governmental agency. Each member of the Board of Governors is selected by the President and confirmed by the Senate. The twelve Federal Reserve banks and the 25 branches are setup similar to corporations. However, there are significant differences between a private corporation structure and the Federal Reserve district bank structure.

Unlike most private corporations with essentially unrestricted stock ownership, the Federal Reserve district bank stock may only be held by member banks. Additionally, the number of shares a member bank subscribes to is determined as a percentage of that member bank's own capital. A member bank may own no more and no less than this percentage, which is set by the Board of Governors.

While member banks "own" shares in the Federal Reserve District banks, those shares do not convey the normal rights of ownership that corporate shares would normally convey. If a Federal Reserve District bank were dissolved, the member banks would only receive the amount that they had paid for the shares originally. All other assets and liabilities of the Federal Reserve District bank would become the property and responsibility of the U.S. Government. Additionally, the shares do not have normal voting rights that common corporate shares would have. Each member bank, regardless of the number of shares it holds, has ONE vote for each of six seats on the Federal Reserve District bank's board of directors. The Board of Governors selects the other three members of the bank's board of directors. There are additional restrictions on who may be elected as a director of a Federal Reserve District bank. BTW, profits of the Federal Reserve are paid to the U.S. Treasury every year.
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Re: Harvester cites a case

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The Federal Reserve is a creation of Congress, by statute, and as such it exists or extinguishes at the pleasure of Congress. The Board of Governors is appointed by the President, and confirmed by the Senate. The Federal Reserve Branch banks were created by statute, and controlled by statute. While the members banks of the reserve district hold “stock” in that branch, it is not truly stock, despite what they call it, and does not in any way shape or form convey ownership. If anything they are really membership certificates and nothing else, since there is no control of them by the “owners”, they cannot be sold or hypothecated, and if the bank closes they return to that branch bank. Each bank has only one vote, and so the member banks have no practical control of their branch, as all authority resides in Board of Governors. While they may have a certain autonomy, it is the Congress that calls the shots and sets the rules, so they are neither private nor independent. They are a Federally created and controlled corporation.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.
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Re: Harvester cites a case

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

LPC wrote:
Harvester wrote:Regarding the cases that support the limited nature of our Income Tax excise - there are lots.
If that were true, then it would be easy to cite *one.*

Since you haven't cited even *one,* you're either an idiot or a liar or both.
Or a coward.
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Re: Harvester cites a case

Post by Harvester »

notorial dissent wrote:The Federal Reserve is a creation of Congress, [snip] They are a Federally created and controlled corporation.
har, that is a good one... Aldrich, Vanderlip, Strong and Warburg are ROLLING ON THE FLOOR LAUGHING THEIR WALLETS OFF!
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Re: Harvester cites a case

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Harvester wrote:
notorial dissent wrote:The Federal Reserve is a creation of Congress, [snip] They are a Federally created and controlled corporation.
har, that is a good one... Aldrich, Vanderlip, Strong and Warburg are ROLLING ON THE FLOOR LAUGHING THEIR WALLETS OFF!
No. The laughter you hear is people laughing at you, Harvester.
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Re: Harvester cites a case

Post by Doktor Avalanche »

Harvester wrote:
notorial dissent wrote:The Federal Reserve is a creation of Congress, [snip] They are a Federally created and controlled corporation.
har, that is a good one... Aldrich, Vanderlip, Strong and Warburg are ROLLING ON THE FLOOR LAUGHING THEIR WALLETS OFF!
Seriously, dude...they are a government created agency with autonomous authority over the nation's monetary supply.

As it should be. Would you really like the government to politicize the monetary system?
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Re: Harvester cites a case

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Well, within limits, but they still jump when and where the Treasury and Congress tell them when it finally comes down to it.

They are though totally a creature of Congress and subject to its whims when push comes to shove. Congress generally prefers to let the FED make the decisions so that they can sit back and say see it was the FED that did it not us, but they are still calling the shots even by not acting.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.
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Re: Harvester cites a case

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notorial dissent wrote:Well, within limits, but they still jump when and where the Treasury and Congress tell them when it finally comes down to it.

They are though totally a creature of Congress and subject to its whims when push comes to shove. Congress generally prefers to let the FED make the decisions so that they can sit back and say see it was the FED that did it not us, but they are still calling the shots even by not acting.
For a clue as the way things really are:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7auQEXTWomA

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Re: Harvester cites a case

Post by The Operative »

Noah wrote:
notorial dissent wrote:Well, within limits, but they still jump when and where the Treasury and Congress tell them when it finally comes down to it.

They are though totally a creature of Congress and subject to its whims when push comes to shove. Congress generally prefers to let the FED make the decisions so that they can sit back and say see it was the FED that did it not us, but they are still calling the shots even by not acting.
For a clue as the way things really are:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7auQEXTWomA

The creature from Jeykll Island. series
Wrong. If you want to know about the Federal Reserve and how it works...ASK AN ECONOMIST. Preferably someone with a PhD. G. Edward Griffin, I believe, has a bachelor's degree in communications. He is not trained in economics or banking.
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Re: Harvester cites a case

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Sorry, dude, anyone who even mentions Jeykll Island or any of the morons like G. Edward Griffin who promote absolute rubbish immediately loses all credibility.

As you have just done. I'd been wondering, no, make that skeptical about your credibility for as long as you have been posting. All doubt has now been removed.
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Re: Harvester cites a case

Post by Noah »

The Operative wrote:
Noah wrote:
notorial dissent wrote:Well, within limits, but they still jump when and where the Treasury and Congress tell them when it finally comes down to it.

They are though totally a creature of Congress and subject to its whims when push comes to shove. Congress generally prefers to let the FED make the decisions so that they can sit back and say see it was the FED that did it not us, but they are still calling the shots even by not acting.
For a clue as the way things really are:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7auQEXTWomA

The creature from Jeykll Island. series
Wrong. If you want to know about the Federal Reserve and how it works...ASK AN ECONOMIST. Preferably someone with a PhD. G. Edward Griffin, I believe, has a bachelor's degree in communications. He is not trained in economics or banking.
Who do you recommend?
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Re: Harvester cites a case

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. wrote:Sorry, dude, anyone who even mentions Jeykll Island or any of the morons like G. Edward Griffin who promote absolute rubbish immediately loses all credibility.

As you have just done. I'd been wondering, no, make that skeptical about your credibility for as long as you have been posting. All doubt has now been removed.
Darn..... :Axe:
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Re: Harvester cites a case

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. wrote:Sorry, dude, anyone who even mentions Jeykll Island or any of the morons like G. Edward Griffin who promote absolute rubbish immediately loses all credibility.
And Griffin's "absolute rubbish" doesn't only concern the Fed. Like many wackos, he's never met a conspiracy he didn't like. He was a big promoter of cyanide from apricot pits (AKA "Laetrile" and "vitamin B17") as a cure for cancer, and has written that the AMA, the FDA and the American Cancer society (for reasons as confused as his "analysis" of the Fed) have conspired to suppress it. When that didn't pay well enough - and when it became perfectly obvious that the stuff not only did nothing to cure cancer but was dangerous - he moved on to Communism. When the Soviet Union fell, he moved on to the Fed. He is a long-time member of the John Birch Society, and a sympathetic biographer of its founder, Robert Welch. There is more, including a conspiracy amongst biblical historians to hide the real landing spot of Noah's Ark.

As "." says, a citation to Griffin is prima facie proof of ignorance.
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Re: Harvester cites a case

Post by The Operative »

Noah wrote:
The Operative wrote:
Noah wrote: For a clue as the way things really are:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7auQEXTWomA

The creature from Jeykll Island. series
Wrong. If you want to know about the Federal Reserve and how it works...ASK AN ECONOMIST. Preferably someone with a PhD. G. Edward Griffin, I believe, has a bachelor's degree in communications. He is not trained in economics or banking.
Who do you recommend?
Definitely not a YouTube video or a conspiracy theorist author. I would recommend that a person take college courses on Money and Banking. Of course, at most colleges, you would need to take Principles of Microeconomics and Principles of Macroeconomics first.

Books by Frederic Mishkin are good. Also, the History of the Federal Reserve, Volumes 1 and 2 by Allan Meltzer are considered to be the most comprehensive about the Federal Reserve. However, he has not finished the latest portion. Another book: The Federal Reserve System, A History by Donald R. Wells is probably a decent source.

EDIT: While I do not agree with his political views and I disagree with some of his economic views, Paul Krugman is one of the most respected economic minds in the world. He has not written too much on the Federal Reserve other than criticisms of policies of the last 20 years. However, his books on economics are well respected.
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Re: Harvester cites a case

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William Grieder, forget the name of the actual book, but you can find it with that.
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Re: Harvester cites a case

Post by Noah »

Gregg wrote:William Grieder, forget the name of the actual book, but you can find it with that.
Gregg, is this the guy?

William Greider, who wrote the definitive book on the Federal Reserve, Secrets of the Temple: How the Federal Reserve Runs the Country, has a new article in The Nation magazine, Dismantling the Temple .

It's quite long, goes over some of the history of the Federal Reserve but I want to point out Greider's 6 reasons why the Federal Reserve should not be made systemic risk regulator.

It would reward failure.
Fed policy was a central force in destabilizing the US economy.
The Fed cannot possibly examine "systemic risk" objectively because it helped to create the very structural flaws that led to breakdown.
The Fed can't be trusted to defend the public in its private deal-making with bank executives.
 Instead of disowning the notorious policy of "too big to fail," the Fed will be bound to embrace the doctrine more explicitly as "systemic risk" regulator.
This road leads to the corporate state--a fusion of private and public power, a privileged club that dominates everything else from the top down.
The last point that giving the Federal Reserve even more power leads to the corporate state is a little belated. The United States already is a corporate state, the Obama administration's proposal just makes it more official.
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Re: Harvester cites a case

Post by LPC »

Harvester wrote:Is it a government agency?
I'm not going to play "20 questions."
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