Harvester cites a case

[The Operative]

William Grieder, forget the name of the actual book, but you can find it with that.

Gregg, is this the guy?

William Greider, who wrote the definitive book on the Federal Reserve, Secrets of the Temple: How the Federal Reserve Runs the Country, has a new article in The Nation magazine, Dismantling the Temple .

Yes, that is the guy that Gregg is talking about. However, the article is 9 months old and not 'new'.

It's quite long, goes over some of the history of the Federal Reserve but I want to point out Greider's 6 reasons why the Federal Reserve should not be made systemic risk regulator.

When discussing something as complicated as the economy and the Federal Reserve, 3,800 words is not long.

It would reward failure.

Hindsight is 20/20. It is a lot harder to predict the future than it is to lay blame for what led to the economic crisis.

Fed policy was a central force in destabilizing the US economy.

That is an opinion that the article does not adequately support with sufficient research.

The Fed cannot possibly examine "systemic risk" objectively because it helped to create the very structural flaws that led to breakdown.

Again, that is an opinion.

The Fed can't be trusted to defend the public in its private deal-making with bank executives.

Yet, the Federal Reserve now releases minutes of the FOMC meetings and publishes summaries of policymakers' economic forecasts. Also, instead of the single annual report, the Federal Reserve now issues a monthly report on credit and liquidity programs and the balance sheet. The current level of Federal Reserve transparency is unprecedented.

Instead of disowning the notorious policy of "too big to fail," the Fed will be bound to embrace the doctrine more explicitly as "systemic risk" regulator.

Again, that is an opinion.

This road leads to the corporate state--a fusion of private and public power, a privileged club that dominates everything else from the top down.

Another opinion that attempts to predict the future.

The last point that giving the Federal Reserve even more power leads to the corporate state is a little belated. The United States already is a corporate state, the Obama administration's proposal just makes it more official.

Now, you add your own opinion.

Look, if you want to criticize the Federal Reserve, you should learn how it operates and what functions it performs. In order to do that, you need to read AND UNDERSTAND several thousand pages of academic texts on the Federal Reserve. That may sound elitist, but unless you do that, you simply won't know what you are talking about.

[Gregg]

Look, if you want to criticize the Federal Reserve, you should learn how it operates and what functions it performs. In order to do that, you need to read AND UNDERSTAND several thousand pages of academic texts on the Federal Reserve. That may sound elitist, but unless you do that, you simply won't know what you are talking about.

Again, AMEN and the oft mentioned reason if you want to talk about economics or central banking with me you need to demonstrate at least one of the following things
1) you have at least a Master's Degree in Finance or MBA and are interested in getting a doctorate in Economics, we can talk. Block off a weekend and plan on coming to Gettysburg to see me.
2) You have a doctorate in Economics, Political Science or other field and want to talk about banking, for your own knowledge or to further your studies, again, plan on a weekend, although if you're interesting enough I may come to you or you're still welcome to come to the East Well Armed Bunker Complex, Baltimore Street, Gettysburg PA....I have accommodations for 4 adults if a spouse is involved, the shopping is so so the history is fantastic...
3) You're online and interested, and don't think you know more than me (unless you do, I'll explain later*) I'll correspond with you, under strict conditions privately and try to help you in a few hundred words here and there in places like this freely.
* I consider myself an expert in 3 things, Economics and Central Banking Policy, Automatic Transmissions and I'm pretty good on history in general, the Civil War in particular and of course, the Battle Of Gettysburg as only someone who buys a house and moves here would. No one pays me squat for the war stuff, although I have a lot of good meals and vacations that revolve around it. I have made a nice little nest egg from my knowledge of money, finance and business and one of the largest auto manufacturers in the world pays me a 6 figure salary for what I know about transmissions, that I am able to donate to charity because a much smaller company pays me an order of magnitude more for what I know about them. Ford pays for the Lincoln in the driveway, the other company paid for the jet.

Now, I am willing to accept that a complete novice in any of my 3 chosen fields may on any given day show, teach or demonstrate to me a thing I did not know, or show me a concept that I had not considered, and when that happens, and it has, it's refreshing. But I also know it's not something I'm going to have happen very often, and it's hardly ever some snot nosed internet know it all like Harvester or this new troll....

Okay, back to Grieder. I do not actually agree with Grieder very much, especially as he gets older because we drift apart on the things we do agree on every day. BUT, Secrets of the Temple is a good book factually, and is written well enough that you don't have to be someone I'd have over to talk about banking to understand. If you read the Creature From Jykell Island and haven't read Secrets of the Temple, well, shame on you for thinking you have an idea what you're talking about, you've done pretty much the same thing as every National Enquirer Story on the Face on Mars without ever having looked at a document from NASA. And you think you have the full story.

[Nikki]

As for the age old question of "are we better off with or without the Fed?", my considered opinion is this - yes.

I disagree.

[Noah]

Okay, back to Grieder. I do not actually agree with Grieder very much, especially as he gets older because we drift apart on the things we do agree on every day. BUT, Secrets of the Temple is a good book factually, .....

I will put the Fed's NASA document "Secrets of the Temple" on my to do list.
Thanks

[Harvester]

Well, if we're talking FED books, my short list in addition to those would include:

Ellen Brown - Web of Debt
Ludwig von Mises - Causes of the Economic Crisis
Ron Paul - END THE FED
Murray Rothbard - The Mystery of Banking
Edwin Vieira Jr. - Pieces of Eight: The Monetary Powers and Disabilities of the US Constitution
Thomas Woods Jr. - Meltdown: A Free-Market Look at Why the Stock Market Collapsed, the Economy Tanked, and Government Bailouts Will Make Things Worse

[The Operative]

Ellen Hodgsen Brown has a law degree and not an economics degree. Unless I am mistaken, she proposes that fractional reserve banking be eliminated and that any money needed to be issued directly by the Treasury. Those are really bad ideas.

Ludwig von Mises was a great economic mind of his time. He was a leader of the Austrian school of economics and many of his writings can give the reader insight into what the Austrian school is all about. Von Mises died 37 years ago and many of his writings are from around the time of the great depression up to WWII. The book that Harvester mentions is a collection of articles that Von Mises wrote between 1918 and 1935. The book was originally published in 1978 (five years after his death). The articles need to be read in the context of where Von Mises was at the time and the economic situation of the country he was in.

Ron Paul is a medical doctor (obstetrician) and politician. To the best of my knowledge, he has no formal training in economics. As far as I know, the only books he has read on economics are those that support the Austrian school of economics. His views on the Federal Reserve are only supported by those who do not understand it.

Murray Rothbard was an economist, a follower of Ludwig Von Mises, and a proponent of the Austrian School of economics. He died in 1995 and I would avoid any books that were ‘written’ by him after that date. I have not read “The Mystery of Banking”, but I do not see why it would be a bad book as long as you can read the 1983 edition. The 2008 edition may possibly be heavily edited and not follow Rothbard’s initial line of thinking.

Edwin Vieira, Jr. – I do not know much about him. I cannot find a reliable source to verify his education. Supposedly, he received his Bachelor’s, Master’s, JD, and PhD from Harvard. I do not know what field those degrees were in. He is possibly the older brother of Meredith Vieira.

Thomas Woods, Jr. has a Bachelor’s and PhD in History from Harvard. To the best of my knowledge, he does not have any training in economics.

To put this as simply as possible, the field of economics is constantly changing and much of it is theoretical. If a person wants to do a casual study of the field, they should first learn the current school of thought about economics before studying alternative views. Currently, the prevalent view is a modified version of Keynesian economics. Also, stick to writings by well-known economists. In other words, the writings of Krugman, Bernanke, Mishkin, Posen, and others are where a person should start. Then once you fully understand the Keynesian school of economics, then you can study alternative views. If you do that and you fully understand what you have read, you may possibly be able to hold an intelligent conversation on economics with any economist.

[webhick]

As for the age old question of "are we better off with or without the Fed?", my considered opinion is this - yes.

That's not a yes/no question. Please try again.

[Gregg]

Ellen Hodgsen Brown has a law degree and not an economics degree. Unless I am mistaken, she proposes that fractional reserve banking be eliminated and that any money needed to be issued directly by the Treasury. Those are really bad ideas.

Ludwig von Mises was a great economic mind of his time. He was a leader of the Austrian school of economics and many of his writings can give the reader insight into what the Austrian school is all about. Von Mises died 37 years ago and many of his writings are from around the time of the great depression up to WWII. The book that Harvester mentions is a collection of articles that Von Mises wrote between 1918 and 1935. The book was originally published in 1978 (five years after his death). The articles need to be read in the context of where Von Mises was at the time and the economic situation of the country he was in.

Ron Paul is a medical doctor (obstetrician) and politician. To the best of my knowledge, he has no formal training in economics. As far as I know, the only books he has read on economics are those that support the Austrian school of economics. His views on the Federal Reserve are only supported by those who do not understand it.

Murray Rothbard was an economist, a follower of Ludwig Von Mises, and a proponent of the Austrian School of economics. He died in 1995 and I would avoid any books that were ‘written’ by him after that date. I have not read “The Mystery of Banking”, but I do not see why it would be a bad book as long as you can read the 1983 edition. The 2008 edition may possibly be heavily edited and not follow Rothbard’s initial line of thinking.

Edwin Vieira, Jr. – I do not know much about him. I cannot find a reliable source to verify his education. Supposedly, he received his Bachelor’s, Master’s, JD, and PhD from Harvard. I do not know what field those degrees were in. He is possibly the older brother of Meredith Vieira.

Thomas Woods, Jr. has a Bachelor’s and PhD in History from Harvard. To the best of my knowledge, he does not have any training in economics.

To put this as simply as possible, the field of economics is constantly changing and much of it is theoretical. If a person wants to do a casual study of the field, they should first learn the current school of thought about economics before studying alternative views. Currently, the prevalent view is a modified version of Keynesian economics. Also, stick to writings by well-known economists. In other words, the writings of Krugman, Bernanke, Mishkin, Posen, and others are where a person should start. Then once you fully understand the Keynesian school of economics, then you can study alternative views. If you do that and you fully understand what you have read, you may possibly be able to hold an intelligent conversation on economics with any economist.

You my friend have an open invitation to the Well Armed Bunker Complex, East or West.

[Gregg]

As for the age old question of "are we better off with or without the Fed?", my considered opinion is this - yes.

That's not a yes/no question. Please try again.

Take an intern, spin him around in circles til he's dizzy, then toss him out the 5th floor window into a pile of scrap metal. Then judge the results, "heads" or "tails"...

This method can be used to answer most binary choice questions.....

[webhick]

As for the age old question of "are we better off with or without the Fed?", my considered opinion is this - yes.

That's not a yes/no question. Please try again.

Take an intern, spin him around in circles til he's dizzy, then toss him out the 5th floor window into a pile of scrap metal. Then judge the results, "heads" or "tails"...

This method can be used to answer most binary choice questions.....

Unless, of course, it's impossible to tell where the head ends and the tail begins. By design, of course.

[The Operative]

Okay, back to Grieder. I do not actually agree with Grieder very much, especially as he gets older because we drift apart on the things we do agree on every day. BUT, Secrets of the Temple is a good book factually, .....

I will put the Fed's NASA document "Secrets of the Temple" on my to do list.
Thanks

To continue in the vein of economic studies and the Federal Reserve, here is a list of books I recommend to study the field of Economics from scratch:

Principles of Economics by Gregory Mankiw (latest edition)

Principles of Microeconomics by Gregory Mankiw (latest edition)

Alternates to the books above are:
Macroeconomics (6th Edition) by Andrew Able, Ben Bernanke, and Dean Croushore

Principles of Microeconomics by Robert Frank and Ben Bernanke

Continue studies with:
The Economics of Money, Banking, and Financial Markets by Frederic Mishkin (Business School Edition)

Applied Economics: Thinking Beyond Stage 1 by Thomas Sowell.

Financial Markets and Institutions by Frederic Mishkin

Monetary Policy Strategy by Frederic Mishkin

Essays on the Great Depression by Ben Bernanke

Inflation Targeting: Lessons from the International Experience by Ben Bernanke, Frederic Mishkin, and Adam Posen

The Accidental Theorist and Other Dispatches from the Dismal Science by Paul Krugman

The Age of Turbulence: Adventures in a New World by Alan Greenspan

Economic Science and the Austrian Method by Hans-Hermann Hoppe

Economics for Real People: An Introduction to the Austrian School by Gene Callahan
Note: Callahan has a Master’s degree in economics and AFAIK has not received a PhD. He has a biased view towards Austrian economics.

The Economics of Ignorance and Coordination: Subjectivism and the Austrian School of Economics by Thierry Amar (The economist, not the musician)

The Federal Reserve System: A History by Donald Wells

The ABC of the Federal Reserve System: Why the Federal Reserve System Was Called Into Being, the Main Features of Its Organization, and How It Works by Edwin Walter Kemmerer
Note: Edwin Walter Kemmerer was a noted economist during the first half of the 20th century. He was a proponent of worldwide monetary markets and central banking systems. You may be able to find a good copy from the 1930s. However, if you cannot, there is a scanned reprint available for sale on Amazon and other book sellers.

2009 Ultimate Guide to the Federal Reserve System, Purposes, and Functions: Complete Coverage of All Aspects of the Fed, from Monetary Policy to Banking by Da Ebil Gubmint

Inside the Fed: Monetary Policy and Its Management, Martin through Greenspan to Bernanke by Stephen H. Axilrod

If you read all of that and understand it, you will be able to impress almost any economics professor in a conversation about economics and might possibly be able to perform decently well in a debate with that professor.

Edited to remove a duplicate book on the list.

[The Operative]

You my friend have an open invitation to the Well Armed Bunker Complex, East or West.

If I get the opportunity to come up to Gettysburg, I might take you up on that.

[Harvester]

To continue in the vein of economic studies and the Federal Reserve, here is a list of books I recommend to study the field of Economics from scratch:

Ben Bernake! Ha! That's rich. Really, your Illuminati cred is showing, that list is all bankster/NWO elitists. And what about the ladies? You're a sexist too?

[The Operative]

To continue in the vein of economic studies and the Federal Reserve, here is a list of books I recommend to study the field of Economics from scratch:

Ben Bernake! Ha! That's rich. Really, your Illuminati cred is showing, that list is all bankster/NWO elitists. And what about the ladies? You're a sexist too?

Harv,

The reason you are an idiot is because you believe that people like Devvy Kidd actually know what they are talking about. You prefer to learn about economics from people who do not know economics. That is the same as asking the cashier at your local grocery store how a nuclear reactor works instead of asking a nuclear engineer.

[Nikki]

Harv,

The reason you are an idiot is because you believe that people like Devvy Kidd actually know what they are talking about. You prefer to learn about economics from people who do not know economics. That is the same as asking the cashier at your local grocery store how a nuclear reactor works instead of asking a nuclear engineer.

That's not quite correct. He's a narrow-minded maroon because he ONLY reads and believes people who agree with him, share his conspiracy theories, believe there's some special, double-secret way around the law, and use big words (which, to him, make them sound like they are smarter than he is -- which actually is probably true)

[Pottapaug1938]

Harv,

The reason you are an idiot is because you believe that people like Devvy Kidd actually know what they are talking about. You prefer to learn about economics from people who do not know economics. That is the same as asking the cashier at your local grocery store how a nuclear reactor works instead of asking a nuclear engineer.

That's not quite correct. He's a narrow-minded maroon because he ONLY reads and believes people who agree with him, share his conspiracy theories, believe there's some special, double-secret way around the law, and use big words (which, to him, make them sound like they are smarter than he is -- which actually is probably true)

Harv is a perfect example of what Charlie Pierce talks about in "Idiot America". Anyone with any expertise is to be shunned and distrusted (as opposed to some clown who is completely or very lightly uneducated in the expert's field of expertise) because he is Better Than The Rest Of Us, and thinks with his brain instead of his gut; and since he is more educated than The Rest Of Us, he is therefore elitist, and likely to enjoy things like brie and chablis instead of cheese twists and beer (and the beer has to be what "real" people drink, like Bud Light, instead of one of those "microbrews" that only an elitist would drink). He doesn't have a megabook deal; he doesn't have his own radio or TV talk show; and when he expounds his ideas, he does so quietly and uses Big Words. At most, he appears on something un-Amurrican like NPR, which never gets high ratings, doesn't promote mass sales of the expert's books, if any, and is therefore of little value.

People like Devvy Kidd don't back up their assertions with fact and demonstrable precedent, they back them up with loud rants that are simplistic and thus easy to absorb, and are thus more to be trusted by those who feel threatened by anyone more educated than they are.

[Nikki]

And wasn't it Devvy who couldn't even hold a job working for Bob S. -- We The People?

[Pottapaug1938]

And wasn't it Devvy who couldn't even hold a job working for Bob S. -- We The People?

I have a hunch that, when it comes to Devvy, it's either her way or no way.

[Cathulhu]

Harv,

The reason you are an idiot is because you believe that people like Devvy Kidd actually know what they are talking about. You prefer to learn about economics from people who do not know economics. That is the same as asking the cashier at your local grocery store how a nuclear reactor works instead of asking a nuclear engineer.

That's not quite correct. He's a narrow-minded maroon because he ONLY reads and believes people who agree with him, share his conspiracy theories, believe there's some special, double-secret way around the law, and use big words (which, to him, make them sound like they are smarter than he is -- which actually is probably true)

Not saying much Nikki--there may be plant life smarter than Harv.