SCAM.COM

[Doc Bunkum]

Not sure how many folks here have been following recent developments on the scam.com forum, but they have been interesting to say the least!

For starts, you have to understand that at one end of the spectrum we have forums like Quatloos! and scam.com - ("a vibrant online community that exposes scams on the internet - Multi level marketing and Get Rich Quick schemes legal and illegal").

On the other end of the spectrum are the MLM proponents like Len Clements, who usually begins his posts with a long winded introduction to himself along the lines of "have 30 years of industry experience, the number one income earner in three different network marketing companies, been a corporate consultant for industry giants like Bain & Co., Amway and Franklin Covey, an award-winning author and publisher, and have even been an industry expert witness on 11 different court cases", etc. etc.

Now you wouldn't think there would be much of a connection between Clements and a forum like scam.com, would you?

Well, you would be wrong if you thought not.

See, there are currently two lengthy threads on scam.com about Lenny and the current MLM company he's with - Yoli.

Lenny apparently didn't like the information being dug up and published on the "Len Clements - Who is he anyway?" thread, so he somehow managed to weasel his way into getting a position as a Moderator on the forum.

Shortly after assuming the position of Moderator, the "Len Clements - Who is he anyway?" thread mysteriously vanished. Lenny swears up and down that it was just a coincidence and he had no part in it. Whatever the truth, Lenny soon found himself permanently banned from the forum and no longer a moderator.

You would think that would be the end of the story. Right?

Wrong!

Just the other day Lenny returns - but this time with full Administrator privileges!

How he managed that is open to conjecture, but shortly thereafter, either by himself or at his behest, Soapboxmom, one of the finest Moderators ever to moderator a forum, and one of Lenny's main detractors, finds herself banned! (As well as a number of regular posters so far).

Who banned Soapboxmom?

An "anonymous troll", or someone willing to take responsibility and acknowledge their actions?

Just wondering.

I did, do you want to join her? If not, drop it.

Lady Mod

Here's an individual that has put in countless hours keeping the scam.com forum free of spam and promotional links, handling day to day issues, all without pay, suddenly no longer welcome - all because she was doing what the forum owner assigned her to do!

But here's the funny part - if that's the right word. The owner published this notice a while back:

Ok, listen up folks. Scam.com's daily visitors have dropped 35% this month and I am blaming the harse treatment of our members. Scam.com is an open forum, for ALL points of view. This board was founded on controversy and debate. It is now becoming what it was trying to fight against, censorship. These are the only things I don't want to see on this board: posting people's personal information, death threats, hate posts, harrassing the mods, pornography, and spam links to affiliate ids or trying to steal our traffic to promote your own site. Aside from that, I want arguments, debate, and runaway threads. If I don't see an immediate decrease in unprovoked banning and thread moderating, I will be forced to make decision that will not be liked. Thank you and have a nice day.

Does anyone else see the irony in the whole debacle?

Thanks to Clements and his minions (the pro-MLM moderators over there such as sojustask), the forum has become the antitheses of what the owners wished to avoid in the first place - censorship!

Just too funny in my books!

[Dude409]

User Please! SoapboxMom was not right in the fingers. She probably did something to deserve that. That aside, she had no business being a "moderator". Note the key component of the word is "Moderate". She had too much of a personal one-sided agenda to be a moderator anywhere unless it is an Anti MLM site like this one. She got the whole Donald Trump! IMO they should have just demoted her but for some reason gave her the whole Donald boot. But she was NOT one of the finest moderators ever. Please.

[GlimDropper]

Soapboxmom was banned by sojustask, plain and simple. While I'm sure Mr.Clements wont shed a tear for her passing there's no reason to believe the banning was "at his behest." The OP quotes the owner of the board in giving a list of things which can not be posted and one of them is "harassing the mods," which would include admins as well. Personally I think making Mr.Clements an admin is a mistake of stupefying proportions, but as long as he is one the are limits to what can be posted about him on that forum. Soapboxmom did not enforce this rule to sojustask's satisfaction and she banned her for it. Soapboxmom devoted countless hours to that site and earned the respect and admiration of myself and many many other members of that community, she was kicked to the curb as an example to the rest of us. It is an example and in more ways than it was intended.

[wserra]

That's unbelievable.

I only posted there for two brief periods, but saw quite enough. It's a schizophrenic place. Half of the posters push their own businesses; not surprisingly, they defend the "industry". That includes two of the people Doc mentions - Clements and the "supermod" sojustask. Clements has posted here, as "MWave". If you want to see the illogical lengths to which he will go to defend his interests, start here and read to the end of the thread. For my take on Clements' "expertise", see here.

A few years ago, I engaged sojustask (during one of those brief visits to scam.com) in a thread about cookie-cutter "wellness" MLM Eniva. She and an Eniva distributor were making ridiculous claims about the chemistry which supposedly "proved" that Eniva worked better than the vitamins you can get at any drug store for a small fraction of the price, claims that were not just wrong but gibberish. I posted a few times, with the content at the high school chemistry level (my own chemistry education goes through orgo). Her answers were not just wrong but condescendingly wrong - "darlin'", "hon" and so forth. After a few days, the entire thread just disappeared. I didn't really see the point in posting there following that.

When I heard that our friend SBM was a mod there, I thought things were looking up.

So much for that thought. SBM now gone, and two MLM advocates the folks in charge. Why again do they call it "scam.com"? Well, if you take just a brief look at the board, you can't miss all the commercials (as opposed to Quatloos, where you can't miss the absence of commercials. Thanks again, Jay.). It seems to be much more commercial than I remember it, but that may not be accurate. In any event, for any site that seeks commercial revenue, traffic is the Holy Grail. I guess they do what seems necessary to attract it.

Sorry, SBM.

[wserra]

She had too much of a personal one-sided agenda to be a moderator

You're kidding, right?

"Supermod" sojustask and new admin Clements are MLM distributors. Clements styles himself an MLM "expert consultant". Whatever SBM's opinion about MLMs, those opinions do not place food on her family's table. If one truly wants to get rid of people in authority with a "personal agenda", start with the wallet.

Why isn't this obvious?

[ChrisDoyle]

The changes are good in my opinion. Scam.com needs to become what it was designed for... a place to show up the scams, instead of discussing legal, ethical MLMs as if they are scams.
The problem with having mods like SBM is that she believes ALL MLMs are scams. The authorities in 100s of countries round the world disagree with her view. I tend to believe they know a bit more about the subject than she does.
Len Clements is obviously pro-MLM, but if you had followed his work for years as I have, you would realise how much he has done to expose the scams that masquerade as MLMs. Len has the experience and knowledge to be able to differentiate between legal MLMs and scams masquerading as MLMs, something that mods like SBM and many scam.com posters cant do.

By the way, I believe you are wrong about sojustask (LadyMod), she is an EX MLMer not a distributor.

[Doc Bunkum]

By the way, I believe you are wrong about sojustask (LadyMod), she is an EX MLMer not a distributor.

Well, there you go, folks.

Another one of the 97% ers!

Thanks for confirming that!

[ChrisDoyle]

Just like yourself Doc.

[Doc Bunkum]

Oh, how rude of me.

I forgot to say, "Welcome to Quatloos!, Chris!"

[MWave]

On the other end of the spectrum are the MLM proponents like Len Clements, who usually begins his posts with a long winded introduction to himself along the lines of "have 30 years of industry experience, the number one income earner in three different network marketing companies, been a corporate consultant for industry giants like Bain & Co., Amway and Franklin Covey, an award-winning author and publisher, and have even been an industry expert witness on 11 different court cases", etc. etc.

So, you can't just make up crap out of thin air over at scam.com anymore, so now you're going to dump it all over Quatloos?

What you have just started is an outright, bold face lie. I have never introduced myself in that manner, or in any even remotely similar way, in any forum, ever. Ironically, YOU keep touting all of my credentials!

Lenny apparently didn't like the information being dug up and published on the "Len Clements - Who is he anyway?" thread, so he somehow managed to weasel his way into getting a position as a Moderator on the forum.

I "weaseled" by way into a moderator position by asking the owner for permission to act in this capacity.

Shortly after assuming the position of Moderator, the "Len Clements - Who is he anyway?" thread mysteriously vanished. Lenny swears up and down that it was just a coincidence and he had no part in it. Whatever the truth, Lenny soon found himself permanently banned from the forum and no longer a moderator.

It has been revealed on the scam.com board, and you are fully aware, that another anti-MLM moderator called No_Moron_Here banned me because he "suspected" that I has simply ASKED to have the thread removed. As a result of this, the owner of Scam.com not only removed the ban on me, he reinstated my moderator status and them banned No_Moron_Here for banning another moderator without just cause!

You would think that would be the end of the story. Right? Wrong! Just the other day Lenny returns - but this time with full Administrator privileges! How he managed that is open to conjecture...

All that I just described above is now well known, and you've commented on it on both the Scam.com and MLM.com boards, Brian. Why are you lying to this audience by pretending you didn't know any of this?

...but shortly thereafter, either by himself or at his behest, Soapboxmom, one of the finest Moderators ever to moderator a forum, and one of Lenny's main detractors, finds herself banned! (As well as a number of regular posters so far).

But, you already know another long time moderator banned Soapboxmom, because she declared it on the board, and you just quoted her! I had nothing to do with it. She was banned because she wouldn't stop complaining about me being made an admin, and bashing me personally (there are strict rules there about attacking the moderators). She was warned, she kept doing it, and now she's banned. Suspended actually.

Thanks to Clements and his minions (the pro-MLM moderators over there such as sojustask), the forum has become the antitheses of what the owners wished to avoid in the first place - censorship!

I see. So now you're anti-censorship? But, after I was banned for life for something I didn't do, you and your troll herd had no problem with attacking me relentlessly based on completely fabricated crap knowing that I no longer had any ability to defend myself.

Well, that's what you thought

Len

[wserra]

Before I forget it again - to the new posters in this thread, welcome to Quatloos. With only two exceptions - a pedophile and a foul-mouthed poster who acted like a ten-year-old - the only people who are banned here are spammers.

The changes are good in my opinion. Scam.com needs to become what it was designed for... a place to show up the scams, instead of discussing legal, ethical MLMs as if they are scams.

"Legal" and "ethical" are two different things. It is legal for me to convince you to sell me your car for a shiny new penny. That doesn't make it ethical.

The problem with having mods like SBM is that she believes ALL MLMs are scams.

So? So long as she is fair in moderating, why are her beliefs a criterion for the position?

The authorities in 100s of countries round the world disagree with her view.

Well, no, they don't. Again, "legal" doesn't mean "ethical". Is it ethical for me to convince some mark to give me a car for a penny? If I do, am I perpetrating a scam, albeit a legal one?

Len Clements is obviously pro-MLM, but if you had followed his work for years as I have,

Well, I haven't, and don't intend to review it. I know him from what he posted on this site.

By the way, I believe you are wrong about sojustask (LadyMod), she is an EX MLMer not a distributor.

If that's true, I apologize. At least she was a distributor at the same time as a scam.com mod, as I am fairly sure I recall her admitting as much.

[No_Moron_Here]

The changes are good in my opinion. Scam.com needs to become what it was designed for... a place to show up the scams, instead of discussing legal, ethical MLMs as if they are scams.
The problem with having mods like SBM is that she believes ALL MLMs are scams. The authorities in 100s of countries round the world disagree with her view. I tend to believe they know a bit more about the subject than she does.
Len Clements is obviously pro-MLM, but if you had followed his work for years as I have, you would realise how much he has done to expose the scams that masquerade as MLMs. Len has the experience and knowledge to be able to differentiate between legal MLMs and scams masquerading as MLMs, something that mods like SBM and many scam.com posters cant do.

By the way, I believe you are wrong about sojustask (LadyMod), she is an EX MLMer not a distributor.

Hello Chris. As you well know, we got along quite well. What distresses me the most about your post, and infuriated me, is that you full well know that both SBM and myself went to bat for you many, many times and had you reinstated when you were banned by Scambuster and no reason was given. So because SBM is anti-MLM, you say she isn't fit to be a mod? Did her stance ever effect the way she treated you? Were your posts deleted or edited by either one of us? The fact is no, they were not. You were able to have your say and her position and stance did not interfere with that. I would assume from your post that you want all pro-MLM mods on the site and you have that at MLM.com which I notice you seldom visit.

And for the record, Sojustask is a former MLMer and is still pro-MLM. She's also a huge bitch on wheels who wanted to see you gone forever. It was SBM and myself that fought her tooth and nail to prove our point that you should be reinstated only because of the methods in which you were banned. Let's face it Chris, you were given more chances on scam.com than there are dandruff flakes in the drain cover of a Head and Shoulders test lab. You owe SBM a lot of gratitude. And an apology.

Len? I'm not even going to go there at this point since he made a pact with the Devil. How appropriate. But not to worry, I'll cover that later along with a few other things.

[wserra]

Guys - please do not continue here in the vein of the fourth, fifth and sixth posts above this one.

Please.

[ChrisDoyle]

Hello Tom. No I didnt say that SBM shouldnt be a mod, but I do believe that her views are a problem on a forum that discusses MLMs both ILLEGAL AND LEGAL. I have no problem with her or anyone else being anti-MLM, but I do have a problem when she or anyone else says that ALL MLMs are scams and are unethical. I acknowledge the fact that both you and her helped to reinstate me and I've thanked both of you for that, but lets be fair, apart from one time I had done nothing wrong and that one time I had committed the massive crime of using font size 3 instead of 2 for my signature line!
I have nothing much against SBM, apart from her ridiculous views about MLM, but I stand by my view that the forum would be much better with mods who can understand the difference between a genuine MLM and a scam. SBM couldnt do that.
By the way, I'm on a current 3 week ban there (ends tomorrow) because I criticized whoever banned Kerry for swearing. Apparently SBM was banned for similar criticism. So if I deserved it (and I dont see anyone crying for me, lol), then surely she did.

[Boomerang]

Soapboxmom is only temporarily banned. She'll be back next week. And she's still a moderator. Sorry to disappoint you, Chris.

I think she's the best moderator at scam.com, so what happened to her is unfair and ridiculous.

She has worked very hard at that website on a daily basis, and this is the thanks she gets? If anybody should have been elevated to administrator, she should have been the one.

[Nikki]

The MLM forums need to keep a tight rein on SBM because she has a major axe to grind.

For some reason, she's convinced that all MLM businessess which generate most of their compensation from recruiting new associates, instead of from selling a product, are unethical.

It's really hard to understand why she's so upset. After all it takes almost 34 levels for a binary downline to exceed the population of the planet. That's plenty of time for early members to make quite a bit of money.

And, also, why should she get upset about product claims made by the associates? Isn't that the job of the FDA and other government agencies to enforce? Just because the claims are unverifiable anecdotes or weasel-worded doesn't make them totally false, does it?

[ChrisDoyle]

I'm not disappointed. I pretty well guessed that the ban was only temporary.

It doesnt matter to me whether or not she is a mod, I was just making the point that the forum would be far better if it actually discussed only the scams and the ones masquerading as MLMs.
Either way it wont affect my business, and I've never heard any MLMer say that scam.com has affected their businesses. Amongst people who really understand MLM, the place is regarded as a joke. It could be regarded much better, and may well be with someone like Len as Admin.

[No_Moron_Here]

Hello Tom. No I didnt say that SBM shouldnt be a mod, but I do believe that her views are a problem on a forum that discusses MLMs both ILLEGAL AND LEGAL. I have no problem with her or anyone else being anti-MLM, but I do have a problem when she or anyone else says that ALL MLMs are scams and are unethical. I acknowledge the fact that both you and her helped to reinstate me and I've thanked both of you for that, but lets be fair, apart from one time I had done nothing wrong and that one time I had committed the massive crime of using font size 3 instead of 2 for my signature line!
I have nothing much against SBM, apart from her ridiculous views about MLM, but I stand by my view that the forum would be much better with mods who can understand the difference between a genuine MLM and a scam. SBM couldnt do that.
By the way, I'm on a current 3 week ban there (ends tomorrow) because I criticized whoever banned Kerry for swearing. Apparently SBM was banned for similar criticism. So if I deserved it (and I dont see anyone crying for me, lol), then surely she did.

Chris, I will respectfully ask you once again, did her views affect the way the board comments from you, the pro and anti-MLMers went simply because she is a mod? You must remember that we post more as MEMBERS than mods, and as mods, our views are our own opinions. There are both pro and anti-MLM mods, some even neutral. Well, not really now since nearly all of them have resigned. Ironic that I've now graced the "banned squad" also although I resigned first. I feel honored to be amongst the proud majority!

The reason the person that was banned for using the term he used was because it was sexually orientated which is against the rules. It wasn't so much the word itself, it was that he basically accused the person of having a particular sexual orientation. Go back and read the thread you started on the person being banned. Right now you would be banned permanently by Sojustask for even starting that thread (her NEW rules). You mentioned that SBM used a particular slogan which I also used and was quite fond of (douchebag). You can buy that product in any supermarket or drug store. It's not obscene. For example, using the word "damn" is a big difference between using the "F" word and they're both considered swear words. I don't know exactly why you were banned but I assume that as usual, you were warned and didn't drop it.

Font size allowed is no larger than size 3. You made it at least a 4 and were told to decrease it (as I recall, I wasn't involved and didn't give a hoot). From what I remember, it was decreased in size for you by Dumbles and you increased it again. Right? I remember that because it was yet another effort on your part to "show us." Sometimes I actually wondered about you but most of the time it just made me chuckle. That's why you never received as much as an infraction from me.

No, SBM was banned because she followed the rules to the exact and did EXACTLY what Sojustask requested and did herself. As stated in another post, Sojustask doesn't like to have even one rhinestone plucked from her scam.com tiara. I should know, I went head to head with her many times. She's always right even when she's dead wrong. You know the type. I actually have more respect for Len that I do Stephanie or George. That is not a compliment either. I predict that the fallout has just begun.

[Dude409]

She had too much of a personal one-sided agenda to be a moderator

You're kidding, right?

"Supermod" sojustask and new admin Clements are MLM distributors. Clements styles himself an MLM "expert consultant". Whatever SBM's opinion about MLMs, those opinions do not place food on her family's table. If one truly wants to get rid of people in authority with a "personal agenda", start with the wallet.

Why isn't this obvious?

No I am not kidding. Apart from the fact that SoapboxMom railed endlessly against Advantage Conferences (and even set up a web site for it), she always treated anyone who was pro mlm very poorly. This included belittling and castrating types attacks that were uncalled for. She should have never been a moderator. However, if it were up to me, that is, if I were the one pulling the strings, I would have removed her moderator status rather than just ban her. To me that is the more appropriate, but who am I to say?

[Doc Bunkum]

So, you can't just make up crap out of thin air over at scam.com anymore, so now you're going to dump it all over Quatloos?

What you have just started is an outright, bold face lie. I have never introduced myself in that manner, or in any even remotely similar way, in any forum, ever. Ironically, YOU keep touting all of my credentials!

Yes, Leonard, I just read your insightful and erudite post over at Yahoo! Finance -
Our beloved Len Clements given Adminstrator rights on Scam.com.

BTW, I see you removed your post - or did the moderators remove it?