Genius at work?

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Pottapaug1938
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Re: Genius at work?

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

Harvester wrote: 230 years ago, you'd all be Loyalists despite increasing British oppression. Look at Harvester, he fancies himself a King! Not paying the Stamp Tax and tossing tea overboard, what ho, he'll be hanging from the gallows soon.
Harvey, you really ought to stop geting your historical "knowldge" from Classic Comics and sound bites. We here in Boston know a thing or two about the issues that you mention.

We objected to the Stamp tax because, like the Sugar tax which was imposed the year before, it was a tax directly levied on the colonies by Parliament, to raise revenue far in excess of the costs of maintaining security in North America, and to raise it from a source which did not pose the political risks that imposing taxes on the British people at home would carry. Not only that, but violations of the Stamp Act were to be tried in juryless Admiralty courts (history is silent on whether or not the flags in these courtrooms had gold fringes on them). We didn't object to being taxed; we just wanted to be the ones to do it, since our legislatures were answerable to the voters and citizens. We also wanted our criminal trials to be held in courts where juries of one's peers were available.

We held the Tea Party for much the same reason. The tax on tea was actually quite reasonable, and was set low enough to undercut the smugglers and allow favored agents to undersell the colonial merchants. The problem was with the fact that it too was imposed by Parliament, which wanted to help out the favored East India Company monopoly. We ended up dumping the tea in Boston harbor only because the British government woulden't give an inch on this issue; and they gave us no effective means to be heard (they ignored most of what we said, for one thing).
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Re: Genius at work?

Post by Harvester »

LDE, your questions came while I was composing my previous response. I wanted to address them earlier but got pulled away with a busy Saturday, family, pool, &c.

I can assure you - I am no Marxist. Although I note that "central banking" is one of Communisms 10 planks (wasn't Marx related to some prominent central bankers?). I'm a free marketer. One of the reasons our nation enjoyed such unprecedented prosperity was our embrace of free market capitalism (at least until 1913). No other system has proven to better allocate resources for the greatest good, for least cost, than the free market. Now before you all start attacking me for all manner of corporate evil, let me say this, in many industries/segments we have don't have free markets, we don't have level playing fields. We have monopolies & corporate cronyism. Yes, that's bad for consumers and it's a legitimate function of government to prevent corporations from monopolizing, to keep the big from eating the small.

My core argument is this ... central banking is a private monopoly. I have no need for it, nor does a free country. To allow a private monopoly to control and issue a nation's fiat currency is beyond ludicrous, it's wrong. It's our greatest modern evil and the genesis, the source, of much of our problems. Central banking allows fractional reserve banking where banks profit off money they don't have. We borrow against our own credit. It generates huge profits for the cabal controlling it. So much that it subverts the rule of law. It causes the transfer of private wealth to these banking cartels via collection agencies such as the I.R.S. That very few people recognize our Federal Reserve as a private cartel is probably the only reason it still exists. Yes LDE, some (not all) govt employees are corrupt because the cartel is controlling them. The cartel has gone into partnership with govt, but it all appears on the "up and up" because they call it "Federal" and let the president select the Board of Governors from the cartel's short list of banksters (with the token academic thrown in for good measure). I don't know much about european economies but I notice they all have central banks, and as such, they've been compromised too.
Demosthenes wrote: The first income tax was passed into law during the civil law. Check your math.
The 1913 income tax replaced a god-awful system of tariffs. Do you honestly believe the tariff system was preferable, ..?
Correct, the first income tax was passed in 1861, but the Income Duty never brought in very much until the 1940's when it really ramped up & got going. In 1936, only 3.9% of the entire American population filed returns. It was absent/insignificant for 160 years. Yes, the tariff system is preferable to a misapplied Income Tax sucking 15 to 30 percent from the average American.

Lawdog, yes Congress already had the power to tax all incomes. But it does not answer the question of "what is income for federal tax purposes?" What income is included, and not excluded by fundamental law, as "income" under the Revenue Acts of Congress?

And for the record, I'm not a tax protester, denier, or birfer. I'm an abolitionist. The Federal Reserve and IRS should be abolished as institionalized slavery. Now, could you let me watch a movie with my wife and stop asking so many questions? Why not just say "you're delusional" like Famspire does and leave it at that.
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Re: Genius at work?

Post by Famspear »

Harvester wrote:Now, could you let me watch a movie with my wife and stop asking so many questions? Why not just say "you're delusional" like Famspire does and leave it at that.
As has always been the case, Harvester is not in the business -- here in this forum -- of actually answering legitimate questions. He asks questions - mostly stupid questions -- and spouts nonsense slogans about federal income taxation being akin to "slavery" or central banking being a "private monopoly" etc., etc. He continues to repeat his nonsensical mantras, no matter how many times they are debunked. Harvester cannot or will not engage in meaningful discussion. Though he may ask a question, he tarries not for real answers. He's too busy cheating on his taxes and copying and pasting nonsense from wackadooster web sites.

In other words, he's a tax protester.

:)
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Re: Genius at work?

Post by LPC »

Harvester wrote:230 years ago, you'd all be Loyalists despite increasing British oppression.
230 years ago, you'd be an idiot, just like you were yesterday, are today, and will be tomorrow.

You ask, "what are you for"?" I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm for rationality. I believe in addressing the problems that exist today based on the circumstances that exist today, and not based on imaginary sound bites from "founding fathers" who all died in the middle of the industrial revolution and before the potential of the steam engine was fully realized.
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Re: Genius at work?

Post by LPC »

wserra wrote:
Harvester wrote:is America moving towards greater freedom, or greater tyranny?
Who thinks that Harvey is a white male?
Who thinks that Rand Paul is a white male who earns a good income and has investments in businesses that earn good incomes?

Where you stand depends on where you sit. If you're a member of a favored class, then philosophies that favor the favored class become very appealing.
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Re: Genius at work?

Post by Harvester »

Ha, they're coming outta the woodwork tonight. Did I get a little too close to the truth that time? So sorry. Potta, thanks for embellishing my Boston Harbah analogy. I'm sure you'll be right there with us in indian garb once you grasp the tyranny now taking place. We ARE a self-governing nation after all, and the people are waking, they're onto your scam, to create a taxpayer from the common man. We'll be issuing orders shortly. Life is good in HarvesterWorld!

LDE, congrats on your friend's success. He would have made even more money if America had sound money, and if he didn't pay the misapplied federal income tax. More for his family, workers, philanthropy, whatever. He has a right to all the property of his labor, just like the dogwalker. What's your point with the political speech? Would that be John (the phony) Kerry? There's a handful of candidates who support our side, the side of Abolition. But most of the others, Dems & Republicans, are in cohoots with the banksters.
Omne wrote:The best proof that you're wrong is the simple observation that you are still here.
Well, being anonymous with a Kazakhstani IP address could have something to do with that. :mrgreen: Oh, and finding one small area where we have greater freedom - socially (wow, now I can marry a white girl) - doesn't say much for your side.

I'm sorry y'all don't realize you're slaves. I know all Washington needs to keep HUGE amounts of money pouring into its hands by way of the income tax is keep you from learning the truth about what legally qualifies as "income" for purposes of the tax.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/max-ke ... cial-fraud
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Re: Genius at work?

Post by The Observer »

LPC wrote:
wserra wrote:
Harvester wrote:is America moving towards greater freedom, or greater tyranny?
Who thinks that Harvey is a white male?
Who thinks that Rand Paul is a white male who earns a good income and has investments in businesses that earn good incomes?

Where you stand depends on where you sit. If you're a member of a favored class, then philosophies that favor the favored class become very appealing.
Who thinks that Devvy Kidd and Lynn Meredith are white females?

Who thinks that Sherry Jackson is a black female?

Who thinks that Wesley Snipes is a black male?

Who thinks that no particular race, culture or ethnic background doesn't actually have a monopoly on stupidity?
"I could be dead wrong on this" - Irwin Schiff

"Do you realize I may even be delusional with respect to my income tax beliefs? " - Irwin Schiff
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Re: Genius at work?

Post by . »

Current village idiot wrote:We'll be issuing orders shortly.
Kinda like those "orders" given to all state governors to leave office about a month ago?
Current village idiot wrote:banksters
Banker rage! It's so cute. The last refuge of morons in general who have no clue about the Fed. Particularly of morons who don't even have the most basic, minimal understanding that the Fed is a government entity, established by and existing at the pleasure of Congress.

Now, don't get me wrong, the Fed, through its ongoing incompetence (it is, after all, run by fallible human beings) has been busy (mostly) unintentionally debasing the currency since its inception. All done in conjunction with the profligate fiscal policies of the last 80 years. Such is the nature of most governments over time.

This tendency needs to be restrained. Friedman may have had the best idea in the context of a modern economy. In any case, fortunately nobody will be taking the advice of a abysmal financial illiterate such as our current delusional village idiot.
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Re: Genius at work?

Post by wserra »

The Observer wrote:Who thinks that no particular race, culture or ethnic background doesn't actually have a monopoly on stupidity?
The double negative makes a short answer difficult, but I surely agree that stupidity, like intelligence, knows no ethnicity. That wasn't the point. The point was that someone from a class that has actually experienced tyranny in relatively recent history is much less likely to believe that such history is a move toward "greater tyranny" than is someone from the class that was favored by relatively recent tyranny.
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Re: Genius at work?

Post by Nikki »

Harvester:

Have you ever ridden in a commercial airplane? Have you ever listened to a weather forecast? Do you own an automobile manufactured in the last twenty years? Do you eat any foods that you don't grow on your farm or drink any water other than from your own well? Have you noticed that there aren't any large armies of Russians, Chinese, or North Koreans marching down your streets recently?

If you answer 'yes' to any one of these questions, then you are using a service of the federal government which you -- by your own admission -- aren't paying for.

Little services like the Federal Avation Administration who control the air traffic -- National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration which operates the satellites that give us all of our weather forecast information -- Food and Drug Administration and Department of Agriculture which do their best to keep contaminated food from the supply chain.

Oh, and let's look at your claim that a free market is the best. Let's just look at one little area. Exactly what incentive would a farmer have to ensure his lettuce was clean and safe if (1) he knew the tainted product could never be tracked back to him, (2) there were no consequences for failing to provide a safe produce and (3) he could make an additional two cents per head of lettuce by not washing it? There you have it -- unregulated free market at its best.
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Re: Genius at work?

Post by Gregg »

Just to bring my own little pet peeve into the mountain of gibberish Harvester spews, is the clear implication that "Banksters" are a group of fat rich white guys (or Jews) sitting in a cloistered room plotting the rule of all the serfs....just exactly who do you think these "banksters" are anyhow? If you're not some pimple faced kid living in mom's basement, and are in fact gainfully employed in some occupation and have, say, a pension you're working towards, a 401K or something similar, it's very likely you are in fact one of these "banksters", because with very few exceptions, the large banks you accuse are in fact public corporations, shares held by private individuals, and every one of them lists among it's major shareholders large pension funds, insurance companies, mutual funds etc.... in short, common people many of whom do not even know they are part owners of CitiBank, JP Morgan Chase, Bank of America etc...
You want to get your hands on what I'm pretty sure you think is immoral profits wrongfully stolen by the "banksters" go out and buy stock in them.
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Re: Genius at work?

Post by Omne »

Harvester wrote:Well, being anonymous with a Kazakhstani IP address could have something to do with that. :mrgreen: Oh, and finding one small area where we have greater freedom - socially (wow, now I can marry a white girl) - doesn't say much for your side.

You need to get out more. Social interaction includes everything you've brought up so far, including government. It's not a small area. What the exchange does show is that in spite of your trolling you actually don't understand the concept of social dynamics. It's small wonder you have a hard time making your trolls stay realistic. People that truly believe the things you espouse normally at least get that part right and stay consistent.

If you *really* believe that the government couldn't find you if they bothered to spend the time then you are woefully uninformed about how the net operates.
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Re: Genius at work?

Post by Thule »

Nikki wrote: Oh, and let's look at your claim that a free market is the best. Let's just look at one little area. Exactly what incentive would a farmer have to ensure his lettuce was clean and safe if (1) he knew the tainted product could never be tracked back to him, (2) there were no consequences for failing to provide a safe produce and (3) he could make an additional two cents per head of lettuce by not washing it? There you have it -- unregulated free market at its best.
Or what incentive Chinese company Sanlu would need to stop selling milk powder contaminated by melamine.
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Re: Genius at work?

Post by Optimus Prime »

Nikki wrote:Harvester:

Have you ever ridden in a commercial airplane? Have you ever listened to a weather forecast? Do you own an automobile manufactured in the last twenty years? Do you eat any foods that you don't grow on your farm or drink any water other than from your own well? Have you noticed that there aren't any large armies of Russians, Chinese, or North Koreans marching down your streets recently?

If you answer 'yes' to any one of these questions, then you are using a service of the federal government which you -- by your own admission -- aren't paying for.

Little services like the Federal Avation Administration who control the air traffic -- National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration which operates the satellites that give us all of our weather forecast information -- Food and Drug Administration and Department of Agriculture which do their best to keep contaminated food from the supply chain.

Oh, and let's look at your claim that a free market is the best. Let's just look at one little area. Exactly what incentive would a farmer have to ensure his lettuce was clean and safe if (1) he knew the tainted product could never be tracked back to him, (2) there were no consequences for failing to provide a safe produce and (3) he could make an additional two cents per head of lettuce by not washing it? There you have it -- unregulated free market at its best.
These government agencies are paid for by the businesses that they regulate,from the income taxes imposed on these businesses by the government. These taxes are passed on to the consumers in the pricing of their products.
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Re: Genius at work?

Post by Nikki »

Optimus Prime wrote:These government agencies are paid for by the businesses that they regulate,from the income taxes imposed on these businesses by the government. These taxes are passed on to the consumers in the pricing of their products.
Let's start with the FAA. Exactly what do the airlines (and private pilots) pay for air traffic control services? We're not talking about landing fees -- flight control. The answer is ZERO. To the extent that commercial airlines are profitable, they do pay some income taxes. However, that hasn't been the case for quite a while and private aviation pays absolutely no business taxes.

Next, let's look at NOAA. What businesses do they regulate in terms of their weather forecasting and information services? The answer is NONE. So how do the taxes of regulated businesses pay for that?

Finally, what businesses are regulated by the Department of Defense?

You really need to keep facts in mind before posting.
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Re: Genius at work?

Post by The Operative »

Optimus Prime wrote: These government agencies are paid for by the businesses that they regulate,from the income taxes imposed on these businesses by the government. These taxes are passed on to the consumers in the pricing of their products.
Corporate income taxes took a nosedive in 2009 and were only $138.2 billion. Corporate income taxes reached a peak in 2007 at $370 billion. Excise and other taxes that were not income taxes, social security, or medicare taxes, were $160 billion.

Now, let's take a look at the budgets for differing parts of the government...

Department of Transportation includes the FAA and the Federal Highway Administration has a total budget of $73.2 billion (BTW, gas taxes are a part of the $160 billion of excise taxes mentioned earlier).

Department of Energy has a $26.6 billion budget.
Department of Agriculture: $134 billion
Department of Justice: $26.7 billion
Department of Labor: $104.5 billion
Department of Homeland Security: $55.1 billion
Department of Health and Human Services: $132 billion (total budget for this dept. is actually $879 billion, but that amount includes Medicare and Medicaid. The stated amount is what is not allocated to those two programs)
Department of Defense: $663.8 billion

Total: $1.2 trillion ($1.96 trillion if Medicare and Medicaid are included)
Corporate taxes and other taxes that are not individual income taxes: $298.2 billion
Even if corporate income taxes had not dropped and were about $370 billion, that would still only amount to $530 billion.

I have left out of the above the budgets of:
Department of Commerce
Department of Education
Department of Housing and Urban Development
Department of State
Department of Interior
Department of Treasury
Department of Veterans Affairs
Various agencies that are not a part of those departments

That is only the executive branch of government. The Judicial and Legislative branches also have budget expenditures.

So, do you want to try again?
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Re: Genius at work?

Post by Harvester »

Omne wrote:If you *really* believe that the government couldn't find you if they bothered to spend the time then you are woefully uninformed about how the net operates.
Oh, I'd welcome a visit from my servants in government anytime. Kazakhstan is lovely this time of year - I've got tea & scones waiting.

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Pottapaug1938
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Re: Genius at work?

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

Nikki wrote:Harvester:

Oh, and let's look at your claim that a free market is the best. Let's just look at one little area. Exactly what incentive would a farmer have to ensure his lettuce was clean and safe if (1) he knew the tainted product could never be tracked back to him, (2) there were no consequences for failing to provide a safe produce and (3) he could make an additional two cents per head of lettuce by not washing it? There you have it -- unregulated free market at its best.
Let's take a look at another example. Back before the various purity laws were enacted in regard to food, you took a serious risk with your health when you consumed dairy products. Milk and butter, for example, was often adulterated with "extenders" which boosted profits while impairing consumer health; and there was no protection against contracting diseases like tuberculosis through these same products. Adultenation was common in many other products, as well.

To steal a phrase from a book I have somewhere: "the good old days -- they were terrible!"
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Re: Genius at work?

Post by Nikki »

You forgot the "locally-produced milk" in Chicago which was almost guaranteed to come from cows with tuberculosis.
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Re: Genius at work?

Post by webhick »

Nikki wrote:You forgot the "locally-produced milk" in Chicago which was almost guaranteed to come from cows with tuberculosis.
I pay extra for that.
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