ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

[Hyrion]

Thanks for more of your inconsiderate asshole comments. It must be interesting to live in your perfect world.

I've been a sucker of fraud. The wisest thing you can do is face up to the reality, admit you were a sucker/victim/whatever word you want to use that's most comfortable for you, and learn from the situation so you can better protect yourself in the future.

I'm a profligate helper.... or I used to be. I can't actually claim that anymore. I run into people outside supermarkets with some story about their situation and could I just give them $20 so they can get some groceries.

Once upon a time, I'd have handed over the $20 without hesitation or thought. But I hit a turning point where I realized they don't care in the slightest what position that leaves me in. And worse, when you share with them what happened to you - instead of thanking you for the real price you paid to help them, they turn on you:

It was your own fault for lending me the money, you shouldn't have done that

That stung. A LOT. But I woke up and realized how much a fool I had been.

Now... when that person asks for money for groceries, I offer to take them into the store and get them a bag of groceries. Strangely enough, they all decline. Or maybe not so strangely since they obviously didn't really want the money for food after all.

Now you can be upset because someone else prefers to use the word sucker or fool or some other word you wouldn't like. But ultimately, the person calling you a fool/sucker/victim/whatever isn't the person who took your money. I'd suggest you redirect that anger you have at the individuals who really deserve it: the people who took your money and yourself for not understanding the situation well enough to be able to protect yourself from it. Use it as a learning experience so you can avoid repeating the situation in the future.

But directing your aggression at Gregg because he uses the term sucker instead of some more "politically correct" term? That's not going to help you at all. In fact, the reality is that your aggression will likely backfire. You may have a question coming up that Gregg has an answer to which he may not want to answer because you decided to call him an asshole when he was simply pointing out the reality.

I've been on the receiving end of such undeserved, unwarranted aggression. And I personally have absolutely no intention of helping individuals who punish me when all I did was try to help them. Perhaps Gregg is a better man than I am in that regard.

[grimreaper]

That's just a quick list off the top of my head to show there's more then 1 place the money could have gone

One thing we DO KNOW>>>>They doled out HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS in investor distributions over the last ten years.

[notorial dissent]

I still think spent is probably the best explanation, although some might call it "invested", others just call it what it is, ratholes. Anyone who thinks/thought Fuel Doctor was any kind of an investment, other than bad, is totally lacking in financial acumen in my books. The only reason I can think of that they are still around at all is that they keep finding suckers to keep them propped up. That being said, I don't see much likelihood that they did much better in their other efforts. Sorry, I just don't see Joel and Ed as financial geniuses, I think they were two morally ambiguous businessmen who lucked in to a con that they could work with minimal effort and expense on their side, all the bonuses and stuff came out of money from their marks, and just meant they didn't get quite as much in the end. They had next to no overhead, and apparently a ready pool of marks. They knew their market and stuck to it and didn't get flashy or out of their comfort zones. They stayed under the radar, and when it all comes down to it were very very lucky. As someone has pointed out, if the market hadn't gone south when it did, they might very well still be running their little "business". The economy went sour and too many people needed their money back and there weren't enough new "investors" coming in to replace them to keep the equation going, and then it did what all ponzis eventually do, and collapsed on its own inertia and inability to continue to fund the engine. The thing is, that if the economy hit the "investors" pool, I don't see any reason it shouldn't have hit whatever the boys had their money sunk in, and that may well be not a pretty gallery of pictures when the lights all come back on.

It will be interesting to see what the financials on Oasis turn out to look like, assuming they kept any better books than NASI, I'm not holding out any great hopes but would be happily proven wrong. My feeling is that if there is other money to be found it will be in the relief defendants, and I don't think they even begin to have the full list of who they should be yet, which may well be what the Receiver is working on now. I don't know how they will go about gathering them in to the estate, since this was something they never had to contend with in any of the companies I helped wind down.

[Lost Income]

Of course I made a mistake investing with NAS along with many others, and I'm glad I was smart enough to diversify so to only invest a small portion of my portfolio. Never the less, if this blog is meant to help investors, then referring to them as suckers etc is NOT helpful, especially given our legal system is still letting crooks walk the streets and is yet to recover anything substantial.

[grimreaper]

Of course I made a mistake investing with NAS along with many others, and I'm glad I was smart enough to diversify so to only invest a small portion of my portfolio. Never the less, if this blog is meant to help investors, then referring to them as suckers etc is NOT helpful, especially given our legal system is still letting crooks walk the streets and is yet to recover anything substantial.

I feel your pain...and I have family who are *victims*. The term *sucker* is a bit harsh...but *caveat emptor* still applies.

[Judge Roy Bean]

Of course I made a mistake investing with NAS along with many others, and I'm glad I was smart enough to diversify so to only invest a small portion of my portfolio. Never the less, if this blog is meant to help investors, then referring to them as suckers etc is NOT helpful, especially given our legal system is still letting crooks walk the streets and is yet to recover anything substantial.

Parsing terminology, i.e., "mistake" is one of those things that eventually becomes a matter of an opinion of evidence along a spectrum of culpability and responsibility that winds its way from the perpetrators down to simple ignorance and vulnerability among the winners and losers. Perps to victims - find your place along the line and I would suggest you have your own legal counsel prepared to justify your choice of position if investigators come calling.

Where you fit on the line has a lot to do with the human frailty of opportunism which, among prosecutors, is strongly associated with simple greed.

Also - being part of "many others" is not absolution. DPS officers will pull over one car among a string of speeders; bad luck for the chosen party but "keeping up with traffic" as a defense is folly.

[Tednewsom]

That's just a quick list off the top of my head to show there's more then 1 place the money could have gone

One thing we DO KNOW>>>>They doled out HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS in investor distributions over the last ten years.

And honest enough not to keep a dime of it. Savings? Dodges? Investments? Them's fer chumps.

notorial-- despite my admiration, I must disagree with you and others who classify Fuel Doctor as a bad investment. I think it's brilliant, and falls right into the same category as phantom ATM leasebacks. It's a perfect scheme on its face. Just think: 25% more mileage for your car, and it only costs 50 bucks! How can I go wrong with that? Look at all the happy customers who get more go for their gas! And there's scientists who say it works! Scientists! And, heck, even if they offer a money-back guarantee, why even bother? It's only fifty bucks. What if it DOES work, huh? That'll show those dopes at Popular Mechanics and Car & Driver!

It's no different from those useless K-Tel gimmicks like hand-cranked lettuce washers, double-lock vacuum faux Tupperware, Ginsu knives and sun-charged phosphorescent night lights for your backyard. And all those have a solid commercial pedigree behind them, including grandparents like Cloverine brand Salve and the great premiums you get for selling it, uncles like Carter's Little Liver Pills, and nephews like the box of 100 Revolutionary War Soldiers in its very own footlocker.

A couple years and some half-hour infomercials all over cable later and you're rolling in dough. Once the government catches on, you shrug and say, "But the scientists assured us it worked. We have charts!"

[The Observer]

And honest enough not to keep a dime of it. Savings? Dodges? Investments? Them's fer chumps.

Ted, no one has said that Joel and Ed did not keep any of the money for themselves. You keep dragging up that strawman as though it will prove that Joel and Ed have jillions of dollars stashed away somewhere. But it doesn't prove anything of the sort.

notorial-- despite my admiration, I must disagree with you and others who classify Fuel Doctor as a bad investment. I think it's brilliant, and falls right into the same category as phantom ATM leasebacks. It's a perfect scheme on its face. Just think: 25% more mileage for your car, and it only costs 50 bucks! How can I go wrong with that? Look at all the happy customers who get more go for their gas! And there's scientists who say it works! Scientists! And, heck, even if they offer a money-back guarantee, why even bother? It's only fifty bucks. What if it DOES work, huh? That'll show those dopes at Popular Mechanics and Car & Driver!

We have classified Fuel Doctor as a bad investment for the investors, not the scammers. And so does Consumer Reports. But I have to wonder if you are thinking of going over to the dark side and starting your own scam after reading the above.

It's no different from those useless K-Tel gimmicks like hand-cranked lettuce washers, double-lock vacuum faux Tupperware, Ginsu knives and sun-charged phosphorescent night lights for your backyard. And all those have a solid commercial pedigree behind them, including grandparents like Cloverine brand Salve and the great premiums you get for selling it, uncles like Carter's Little Liver Pills, and nephews like the box of 100 Revolutionary War Soldiers in its very own footlocker.

Perhaps, but you have to convince the victims that they got ripped off. Some people probably swear by this stuff no matter how cheap it is or how soon it breaks. The difference with NASI is that you have no one now swearing by it and looking to invest more. And I suspect on your items listed above, a lot of the customers didn't repeat the purchases.

[grimreaper]

And honest enough not to keep a dime of it. Savings? Dodges? Investments? Them's fer chumps

Sure they skimmed, but that's miniscule compared to the totality of funds that went down the drain to investors. Receiver knows damn well that's where he's compelled to go, slim chances not withstanding. I would be stunned if they're able to recover more than a couple million in assets belonging to NASI.....Wishner and Gillis.

[Tednewsom]

We have classified Fuel Doctor as a bad investment for the investors, not the scammers. And so does Consumer Reports. But I have to wonder if you are thinking of going over to the dark side and starting your own scam after reading the above.

It's no different from those useless K-Tel gimmicks like hand-cranked lettuce washers, double-lock vacuum faux Tupperware, Ginsu knives and sun-charged phosphorescent night lights for your backyard. And all those have a solid commercial pedigree behind them, including grandparents like Cloverine brand Salve and the great premiums you get for selling it, uncles like Carter's Little Liver Pills, and nephews like the box of 100 Revolutionary War Soldiers in its very own footlocker.

Perhaps, but you have to convince the victims that they got ripped off. Some people probably swear by this stuff no matter how cheap it is or how soon it breaks. The difference with NASI is that you have no one now swearing by it and looking to invest more. And I suspect on your items listed above, a lot of the customers didn't repeat the purchases.

If I really valued money over honesty, I'd be a wealthy guy. With Fuel Doctor-- it really IS a great way for investors to make money in the same way Gillis & Wishner made money on the ATM scam. Sure, it's a con-- why else would these guys be attracted to it? It's a totally useless, pointless, silly "product" designed for one thing only-- to grab fifty bucks from millions of suckers.

And from their (corrupt, cynical, criminal) point of view, it's even one step better than their own grift. They had an arm's-length distance from the scam. They could say, "Gosh! We didn't know the Fuel Doctor didn't do a damned thing! I mean, heck, we're not scientists or anything. Gee whiz, your honor, I guess those Fuel Doctor guys bamboozled us!" -- an excuse they don't have with their own con.

(On the other hand, if by "investors" you mean "customers"-- yes, they get stuck right in the ass.)

[webhick]

Fuel Doctor may not have been a great investment for an actual investor. Anytime it's brought up in the filings, some variation of "According to Soffa, Fuel Doctor's current inventory and operations are very limited and sales are limited to one catalogue." is said. The company has also changed ownership several times in "various failed attempts to take the company public".

I'm not familiar with that side of business, so I found a document on the SBA which was a little enlightening. For instance, the part where three important benefits all amount to "raising capital" and about how an IPO is the most expensive way to finance a business both caught my eye.

I'm no expert in this, but these signs point to Fuel Doctor having no means by which to return NASI's investment.

[notorial dissent]

Fuel Doctor, as far as I can remember, has been basically a scam since the day of its inception back in the dark days of the penny boom, when it first reared its ugly head.

It never really had a product, other than some nebulous fuel inhancing mumbo jumbo. Memory says, and I could be badly misremembering something that long ago, that it went public as a penny back in the early 80's. I don't particularly remember all that much about it since I don't remember that the company I was working for at the time was involved in either the closing or the initial offering. I do remember that the people I knew at the time who were playing the market fast and furious, legally or otherwise, and making big money at it, avoided it like the plague, since the sub rosa word then was that it was basically a con, in a large field of what were all largely cons, that is saying something. Money in the penny market in those days was largely made on the opening and early sell off of new issues, and not on the companies themselves. I can probably count on maybe two hands the number of companies that survived and went on to have some kind of life, most of them quietly, or not so quietly, folded and disappeared, or some like Fuel Doctor hung on somehow and faded to the pink sheets and then eventual de-listing, which is where I believe they are now. They still exist, but basically as a shell. There are lots and lots of them. Fuel Doctor has always been a money conduit, one way, to whoever actually owned it, and it has passed through several hands I'm sure since I first encountered it. As far as I can tell, they still haven't changed their business model, just gotten different bright and shinies to attract the marks. So it may be a good investment for whoever actually really owns it, but certainly NOT for anyone investing or loaning money to it.

[The Observer]

(On the other hand, if by "investors" you mean "customers"-- yes, they get stuck right in the ass.)

No, that is not what I meant.

So it may be a good investment for whoever actually really owns it, but certainly NOT for anyone investing or loaning money to it.

That is what I meant. If Fuel Doctor is a great scam as you claim, then it means that the average joe investor is getting scammed as well as the customers. No one sets up a scam to reward the little guy if they can possibly help it.

Which,by the way, is why there can't be a 1:1 ratio of winners to losers in a Ponzi scheme.

[Lost Income]

After 19 years of growing the investor base each year, funneling money thru rat holes, and raising families, these guys aren't so dumb and odds are high that they have cash stashed. As long as they feel no harm will come to them and that they will spend the rest of their lives in jail regardless, we'll never know how much and never see a penny, and their families will spend this money on all the non traceable items they want forever.

[notorial dissent]

That is what I meant.

And I agree with you whole heartedly, just amplifying on the theme.

[webhick]

After 19 years of growing the investor base each year, funneling money thru rat holes, and raising families, these guys aren't so dumb and odds are high that they have cash stashed. As long as they feel no harm will come to them and that they will spend the rest of their lives in jail regardless, we'll never know how much and never see a penny, and their families will spend this money on all the non traceable items they want forever.

Their personal accounts were frozen, so Joel is already out his $30k and Ed, his measly $800. And I can't find it right now, but I seem to recall something about them only being allowed to have living expenses or some such. I only remember because I chuckled and said "They're getting allowances..."

I know it's upsetting to have them still walking around, but there's an upside to this. If they got used to living a little high on the hog, then they're going to have issues with having their spending limited. When those issues mount, they might do something wonderfully stupid and access money the Receiver otherwise would not have found.

::sigh:: A girl can dream.

[Hyrion]

After 19 years of growing the investor base each year, funneling money thru rat holes, and raising families, these guys aren't so dumb and odds are high that they have cash stashed. As long as they feel no harm will come to them and that they will spend the rest of their lives in jail regardless, we'll never know how much and never see a penny, and their families will spend this money on all the non traceable items they want forever.

I find it ironic that they apparently lacked sufficient morals/ethics and/or financial acumen that they couldn't run a legitimate profitable enterprise.....

... and yet ...

..... it's assumed they have the morals/ethics to see to the future of their families and the financial acumen to have put away funds for the future in a location that either the US can't find or is outside their jurisdiction.

This, of course, does not mean they haven't put something aside. This simply outlines the reality that at this point it is an assumption - not a proven fact - that they've put money away.

Maybe they have, maybe they haven't.

I'm personally one of those individuals who doesn't count the chickens before they hatch, and I'm also not one to put all the eggs in one basket.

[grimreaper]

Wishner and Gillis were hobbled in their ability to *skim* off large sums. Their first priority was to KEEP THE SCAM going at ALL COSTS so they wouldn't get caught. In order to do that, paying off investors (and keeping them happy), while recruiting new ones, was the prime objective. No doubt they skimmed funds, but anyone who thinks it was SIGNIFICANT.. say in the tens on millions...is mistaken.

[Tednewsom]

Well... not if they did what Gillis repeatedly said they did, buy one (phantom, on-paper-only) ATM for every one a customer bought-- with the customer's own money.

Seriously... when a crook tells you, "We're going to take your money and spend it on ourselves. For every buck you make, we make the same. And we aren't dumb enough to ante up for the privilege."-- which is basically what he did by explaining the company policy in his sales pitch -- I'd take him at his word.

[Hyrion]

Well... not if they did what Gillis repeatedly said they did, buy one (phantom, on-paper-only) ATM for every one a customer bought-- with the customer's own money.

Seriously... when a crook tells you, "We're going to take your money and spend it on ourselves. For every buck you make, we make the same. And we aren't dumb enough to ante up for the privilege."-- which is basically what he did by explaining the company policy in his sales pitch -- I'd take him at his word.

When I first saw that in this thread, to me it was just the standard empty sales pitch.

• Look, I believe in my product so much I've bought 3 myself and 6 more for my family

So no, I don't believe for an instant they actually bought any to make that statement true - whether with their own money or the investors money.

Of course, the receivership documentation might be able to identify:

• 1) Total units purchased (whether on paper or in reality)

• 2) Total units purchased by the investors

• 3) 1 - 2 = Total units purchased by company (Gillis et. al.)

I'd actually be pretty surprised if 2 = 3.