UK giro slips as bills of exchange

[littleFred]

There has been recent GOOFy talk about paying utility bills with bills of exchange. I wondered what this was all about. Before internet banking came along, that's how I paid bills. I would write out a cheque (which is a particular type of bill of exchange), with the credit slip (which tells the utility company which account to credit), put it in an envelope with a stamp and send it off. The money would eventually filter from my bank account to the utility company's.

The GOOFy spin is exactly the same but without depleting the customer's bank account. It needs three stamps and magic words but no cheque or other bill of exchange. At a recent (2 April 2015) meeting in a noisy bar near Tom Crawford's, "Kevin Mark" explained the process.

Kevin quotes some passages from Cheque & Credit Clearing Company. They explain that a "bank giro credit" is for paying a bill by cash or cheque at a bank. A "joint giro credit" is for paying at either a bank or a post office.

Kevin claims a joint giro credit (unlike a bank giro credit) is a negotiable instrument. It is issued by a bank, to us, for our energy. Huh, what? Kevin doesn't explain. Perhaps some bank is very kindly offering to pay our utility bills. The joint giro credit is like a cheque, but we can't cash it. It is of value only to the utility company. To accept this generous offer we need to apply some magic to the joint giro credit. Kevin explains the magic needs three first-class stamps (which makes him the post-master so he owns the document) and hand-written words:

Not transferable. To Severn Trent Water for payment in the sum of £212.50 {my name, address, NI number}. Transfer this joint giro credit slip by my endorsement for a non-commercial agreement. {date, sign}

Kevin explans this. The audience take notes and ask questions. With his giro slip, Kevin also sends copies of stamp act 1891, bills of exchange 1882, fraud act 2006, protection from harassment act 1997 and gas act 1954. Yeah, that'll convince them! With all that weight of law behind it, this method is sure-fire guaranteed effective.

Kevin explains how effective the method is:

I had a letter yesterday. They are taking me to court. So we'll see what happens on that one. But that's where we want to be. We are trying to close every door that they want to get us into. We want to get that door open, the door that gets us into county court. If it goes there, they are finished. And that's why they don't want us in there.

Ah, I've got it. So the intention is not for the bill to be paid, but to be taken to court. Yeah, right. Okay. And the court will rule in favour of Kevin, proving that this method works. Or they will rule against him and anyone else who tries this junk. As Kevin says, "We'll see."

[Hercule Parrot]

Kevin explains how effective the method is:

I had a letter yesterday. They are taking me to court. So we'll see what happens on that one. But that's where we want to be. We are trying to close every door that they want to get us into. We want to get that door open, the door that gets us into county court. If it goes there, they are finished. And that's why they don't want us in there.

Ah, I've got it. So the intention is not for the bill to be paid, but to be taken to court. Yeah, right. Okay. And the court will rule in favour of Kevin, proving that this method works. Or they will rule against him and anyone else who tries this junk. As Kevin says, "We'll see."

That's very good of him. If only other GOOFy-types would take the same positive approach, eg don't BS about what they claim the law says, but instead get the matter before a court so that it can be definitively established. I'm sure that "Kevin Mark" will respect the outcome of the hearing...

[PeanutGallery]

I had a letter yesterday. They are taking me to court. So we'll see what happens on that one. But that's where we want to be. We are trying to close every door that they want to get us into. We want to get that door open, the door that gets us into county court. If it goes there, they are finished. And that's why they don't want us in there.

Am I reading this right, because surely if Kevin is being taken to court, then it really rather suggests that they DO want them in court. Not sure how he can take being taken to court to be an indication that they don't want to take him to court.

Then again this wouldn't be the first logic fail of the wibblers.

[littleFred]

Perhaps they have summoned him to magistrates' court and he will demand the case is transferred to county. If that succeeds, he will demand a jury of his peers, at Queens Bench, where the jury can decide both facts and law and the judge merely makes the coffee.

[ArthurWankspittle]

Perhaps they have summoned him to magistrates' court and he will demand the case is transferred to county. If that succeeds, he will demand a jury of his peers, at Queens Bench, where the jury can decide both facts and law and the judge merely makes the coffee.

Sadly it's likely to be a debt claim at the local county court.

[morrand]

We had a fellow around here try the same sort of thing with the local gas company—though he didn't even go to the trouble of getting a slip out of the local bank, but just wrote the magic words on the bill and sent it back. The gas company was unimpressed, so he complained to the public utilities commission, which was also unimpressed.

He also tried the same stunt with the electric company, but the case got thrown out when he later admitted to the PUC judge that he'd taken 16 Federal Reserve Notes, each denominated, "$100," to his local currency exchange and passed them across the counter with instructions to credit the electric utility's accounts (i.e., he paid in cash).

[Hercule Parrot]

So basically this is a second run at the "Accepted For Value" scam?

[littleFred]

So basically this is a second run at the "Accepted For Value" scam?

Yes, in the sense that it uses magic words that are total nonsense.

No, in the sense that Kevin makes it clear that this is neither A4V nor Promissory Notes, but something he calls Bill of Exchange. And it can't be used on any old bill, but only those that have joint giro credits, ie can be paid at post offices. The other distinction is that although in Wesley Ahmed v British Gas and The Court System, Wesley claims this method works, Kevin doesn't claim this. He does say another load of junk about warrants, and also says:

So it's a waiting game now and we just want British Gas to bring the claim to the table in the correct jurisdiction which is county court, civil.

[notorial dissent]

I would say it is a variant of the A4V scam. One of our domestic loons was touting using the invoice coupons usually sent with bills to pay those bills. You took the coupons, put some magic words on them and marked them paid in full or something and that magically turned in to a payment somehow. I think he ran with that until his sucker list started getting their power shut off and then he moved on to something else equally silly.

[Dai Kiwi]

BG will probably just get a warrant and fit a prepayment meter. (Win! They're too scared to face his sure-fire plan in Court)

[Normal Wisdom]

Ceylon / Seylon and Kevin are back with an in depth look at "paying by endorsement" and as an aperitif a bit about obstructing the use of warrants of entry to fit pre-payment meters.

It's heady stuff, well it makes my head hurt. I haven't managed to get through all the "paying by endorsement" bit yet. My brain crashed at the point when Kevin claims that we aren't liable to pay anyway as we don't enter into a commercial agreement because "we live in private house dwellings". Ceylon tells us that we have already paid for the infrastructure anyway and therefore we own it. Well if we own it (and of course we don't) aren't we responsible for maintenance?

The initial bit about the two Gas Acts is interesting-ish. They seem they might be on to something about the casual use of Health & Safety under the 1954 Act to gain a warrant to enter the property but then they have a bit of a problem with the 1986 Gas Act which apparently allows for a Warrant of Entry to fit a pre-payment meter. Never fear, there is the old standby; Acts and Statutes require consent so you simply tell the man from the gas company that you don't consent to a gas meter and they go away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotatio ... QnQerNu_v8

[littleFred]

I have no knowledge of what warrants British Gas ask for or get.

Ceylon and Kev Martin are smugly stupid in this video. Kev warns us towards the end that using this get-into-a-stupid-mess-free will bring court cases, bailiffs, locksmiths and so on. He has handy tips on dealing with locksmiths. (Yeah, those tips are legally junk, naturally.)

Anyhow, those Gas acts: Rights of Entry (Gas and Electricity Boards) Act 1954 and Gas Act 1986 sched 2B

The 1954 Act is short. Gas people have a right of entry either (a) with permission or (b) if they have a warrant or (c) in emergency. It doesn't restrict the reason for a warrant, merely that entry is "reasonably required" and the right is conferred by the Gas Act 1986 (or some other legislation).

The Gas Act 1986 schedule 2B para 7 says if the consumer doesn't pay his bill within 28 days, or the supplier asks for a deposit and the consumer doesn't pay a deposit and also doesn't agree to a pre-payment meter, the supplier can give 7 days notice of intention to install a pre-payment meter, and then do so. That schedule, para 28, references the 1954 Act. So if the supplier has followed the rules, and the consumer declines to have a pre-payment meter, the supplier can ask for a warrant and then fit the meter.

It doesn't say (as Ceylon and Kev claim) that a 1986 warrant can't be enforced without the consumer's permission. Obviously not, or there would be no need for a warrant. Duh. This is a classic example of their stupidity. Warrants don't need permission to be enforced.

And that's before the stupidity about "endorsement". It's mostly the same as in my OP above, but with added misunderstandings about the distinction between joint giro credits and bank giro credits.

[Normal Wisdom]

In the latest video Ceylon mentions that dear old Tom Crawford used their "knowledge" on the Gas Acts to see off the engineers from the gas company who wanted to fit a prepayment meter. I guess that means he's not paying his utility bills either now. Poor old boy is determined to end up on the street or in jail.

[vampireLOREN]

In the latest video Ceylon mentions that dear old Tom Crawford used their "knowledge" on the Gas Acts to see off the engineers from the gas company who wanted to fit a prepayment meter. I guess that means he's not paying his utility bills either now. Poor old boy is determined to end up on the street or in jail.

This made my day !!!! over the last couple of weeks I have really started to dislike this man.

[Dai Kiwi]

In the latest video Ceylon mentions that dear old Tom Crawford used their "knowledge" on the Gas Acts to see off the engineers from the gas company who wanted to fit a prepayment meter. I guess that means he's not paying his utility bills either now. Poor old boy is determined to end up on the street or in jail.

Not having watched the latest video, I assume the engineers backed off in the face of an intimidating or obstructive householder. This is not uncommon, standard practise even. My guess is either they will be back at a later date with police support to fit the meter (under the 'every officer is required to assist...' provisions), or they will be back and turn off the supply at the street. If the latter then civil debt proceedings will follow. If the former, Mr Crawford may find himself arrested if he gets too obstructive.

Note: In the late 1990s I worked in BG's prepayment meter section. The phone calls we received when someone came home to find one fitted were... interesting. One of the best lines I heard a supervisor give someone after a long conversation was along the lines of "Quite frankly madam, the amount you've paid off your gas bill wouldn't heat a tin of beans". There was also the person who must have been driving erratically while on the phone to me. Their parting words to the sound of a siren were "...and now they're going to arrest me. This is your fault"

[littleFred]

GOODF has a thread with a very tedious one-hour video that gives an update on this marvellous process for Getting Into Trouble Free.

CAUTION: The video is mind-numbingly boring, and almost all content is utter garbage. If you watch this and punch your computer in frustration, don't blame me. Here are some highlights:

Kevin and Mark explain what happens after the sucker follows the process in the first video, which was about writing junk on the Joint Credit Slip. What happens next? The sucker is taken to court for a warrant to fit a pre-paid meter. And then? After the sucker spouts a load of junk, the sucker loses.

14m 22s Bills of Exchange 1882. Ceylon says this can't be changed because then commerce would collapse and everything would be free. [But it has changed, and commerce didn't collapse.]

20m 25s Kevin says a cheque is a promissory note. [No it isn't. It is a bill of exchange.]

22m 30s Junk as on the previous video. But it is even more wrong. When Ceylon writes a cheque, he is both the drawer and drawee. [No. The drawee of a cheque is always a bank. Ceylon isn't a bank; he can't be the drawee.]

A joint giro credit slip is a cheque. [No it isn't.]

If they send it back, they have refused payment so the debt has now gone. Do a notary protest.

Memorandums of Association say the company is obliged to accept promissory notes from consumers. [No they don't.]

[wanglepin]

In the latest video Ceylon mentions that dear old Tom Crawford used their "knowledge" on the Gas Acts to see off the engineers from the gas company who wanted to fit a prepayment meter. I guess that means he's not paying his utility bills either now. Poor old boy is determined to end up on the street or in jail.

tommy is certainly a sucker for punishment.

Tom it seems intends to go out with a bang.

[slowsmile]

So now the GOODFers can send an "endorsement", an A4V, a promissory note and a Were cheque and pay the bill four times (in their dreams)

[littleFred]

A bloke has tried to pay his Eon gas and electric bill with this technique. Eon have written back saying this isn't a valid way to pay them. So he phones them up to try and persuade them. He doesn't succeed at that, but does achieve his secondary objective.

BLOKE: I'm looking forward to court action. Please proceed with legal action.

EON: All right, no problem, I'll make sure that you get sued today. It just seems a strange request. Not many people ask us to sue them. ... Is there anything else I can help you with?

[NYGman]

BLOKE: I'm looking forward to court action. Please proceed with legal action.

EON: All right, no problem, I'll make sure that you get sued today. It just seems a strange request. Not many people ask us to sue them. ... Is there anything else I can help you with?

Another Victory!