UK - Neelu Berry opens my eyes

[longdog]

and even though it is less than the £20 per week which the law says I do not need to disclose

I call bollocks on that, you have to declare everything and maybe there are some things disregarded, but you can't not declare a pension no matter how small.

Your bollocks-call is entirely justified. The ESA form asks for details of all income regardless of the amount...

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... 3/esa1.pdf

[The Seventh String]

The fact that magistrates have taken one look and booted the case to the Crown Court is unlikely to help her to escape something more than a community order. Benefit fraud is something the DWP takes seriously. As for repayment of the GBP5,000, that'll be another job for her friends the local bailiffs.

Overpayment recovery and the payment of any fine can be done by deductions from any remaining benefit entitlement. If her non-ESA income is under £20 then she’ll presumably remain in receipt of some ESA, assuming the DWP accept she’s still ill enough to qualify, which can be a bit of a lottery. Unless she gets sanctioned, which I genuinely hope does not happen to her. She’s already got enough problems, as she regularly demonstrates.

Her (or anyone else) being sentenced for fraud, if guilty, I have no qualms about assuming the sentence is commensurate with the scale of the offence commited.

As for pensions and ESA, contribution-based “support group” ESA isn’t affected by a pension under (I think) £85/week, but should still be declared - it keeps the bureaucrats happy and prevents them being surprised when/if they do find out about it. They tend not to like surprises, makes them all suspicious. According to the charge sheet Neelu’s claimed Income Related ESA so as far as I know all income should definitely have been declared.

As for the magistrates bouncing it “upstairs” that might be their decision, a prosecution request or Neelu could have demanded “trial by jury”. Whatever the reason, I expect it’ll be an experience for all concerned.

[ArthurWankspittle]

As for the magistrates bouncing it “upstairs” that might be their decision, a prosecution request or Neelu could have demanded “trial by jury”. Whatever the reason, I expect it’ll be an experience for all concerned.

I'm wondering about that too but there may be an "amounts involved" element and a potential sentencing level which the Magistrates can't deal with. There is also the element that this has been going on for years. If this was discovered after a few months, the benefits office would probably just take it back out of future payments or cancel her claim. Not much benefit rule bending and low level over-claiming gets to the level of charges and court.

[King Lud]

Hoaxtead have a bit more info on Neelu's case here,

https://hoaxteadresearch.wordpress.com/ ... ranslated/

[aesmith]

Hoaxtead have a bit more info on Neelu's case here,
https://hoaxteadresearch.wordpress.com/ ... ranslated/

Ironically Hoaxstead have highlighted the part of the form dealing with receipt of benefits, not with receipt of personal pension (which is Part 9)

[longdog]

Regardless of which version of the form she filled in, every year in late Feb / early March she will have received an award letter which will include a statement of any declared income regardless of whether or not that income affects the award.

If there's an error, deliberate or otherwise, and she fails to correct it, she's committing an offence.

[The Seventh String]

Guilt or innocence is, as always, a matter for the court and since the case in question is now sub judice it might be wise to avoid speculation regarding possible verdicts. Everyone is innocent until the court finds them otherwise. We get used to discussing ongoing court cases and speculating about them, perhaps because there’s no restriction in the US against doing so and the internet is international with a large US presence.

Here though, while reporting what has happened is fine, speculation about guilt or innocence runs the risk of being contempt of court or of prejudicing a trial.

So I’ll try to avoid any such speculation.

I'm wondering about that too but there may be an "amounts involved" element and a potential sentencing level which the Magistrates can't deal with.

There are several factors which might lead to magistrates deciding to send a “triable either way” case to Crown. The bench may consider a suitable sentence, if guilt is found, to be beyond the level available to magistrates. Or the prosecution might suggest that is the case and request the case be moved. Or the defendant might request a Crown Court hearing before a jury. Or the bench may decide for other reasons, such as complexity, that they consider the case should be put before a jury or would benefit from the legal expertise of a judge.

Without seeing the magistrate’s reasoning we’re just guessing.

At an initial hearing before magistrates, the usual format where an offence can be tried “either way” - summarily by magistrates or on indictment by the Crown Court - would be to take the plea then decide on disposition. A “guilty” plea resulting in sentencing there and then, or being listed for sentencing by magistrates at a later date, or referred for sentencing to the Crown Court if the bench thinks that is appropriate.

A “not guilty” plea, or a refusal to plead which amounts to the same thing, gets listed for a full hearing at whichever level of court the magistrates consider appropriate.

When the trial is listed for depends on the estimated amount of time the parties need to prepare, when witnesses are available and how long the trial proper is anticipated to take. The case then gets slotted into a suitable date at the relevant court. Which sometimes means there’s a long interval between a plea hearing and the actual trial.

Mind you, anticipating how much time anything involving Neelu might require is a bit like guessing the length of an elastic band in someone else’s pocket. While blindfolded.

There is also the element that this has been going on for years. If this was discovered after a few months, the benefits office would probably just take it back out of future payments or cancel her claim. Not much benefit rule bending and low level over-claiming gets to the level of charges and court.

The alleged matters are obviously considered serious enough to press charges.

As for simply “cancelling” a claim, that isn’t lawful unless the facts demonstrate there is no legal entitlement - that someone has allegedly - or actually - commited fraud or been over-paid for any reason does not extinguish their legal right to what social security payments, even of the benefits concerned, they remain legally entitled to.

Benefit sanctions are a different matter and have their own rules.

The method and rate of recovery of overpayments from benefits is also laid down in law, and again simply ceasing payment isn’t one of them.

Since the mid 1990s benefit fraud legislation has made available to the DWP a battery of financial penalties they can apply in certain circumstances without going to court, some being quite severe, but those penalties are again laid down in law and, obviously, the law is there to be obeyed.

In this instance they have chosen to press charges.

[AnOwlCalledSage]

A “not guilty” plea, or a refusal to plead which amounts to the same thing, gets listed for a full hearing at whichever level of court the magistrates consider appropriate.

A good summary, but it needs one amendment from my practical experience.

You can enter a "no plea" at the magistrates hearing. This is not a "refusal to plead" but the equivalent of deferring the plea. The are several reasons why this might be the case. one being where the defence has not yet had access to the evidence and is therefore unable to come to a determination whether the client should plead one way or the other.

You might ask "why not just plead 'not guilty'?" Well, there are sentencing ramifications for pleading not guilty at this stage if you later change your plea to guilty. As long as by the time of the Crown Court pretrial hearing you have a plea worked out, you are not penalised for making a no plea here.

[ArthurWankspittle]

As for simply “cancelling” a claim, that isn’t lawful unless the facts demonstrate there is no legal entitlement - that someone has allegedly - or actually - commited fraud or been over-paid for any reason does not extinguish their legal right to what social security payments, even of the benefits concerned, they remain legally entitled to.

My experience includes it being suggested to claimants that if they withdraw their claim then the benefits office would take no further action. Whether such things are allowed and done these days is another matter.

[Wakeman52]

Just WTF?

[Siegfried Shrink]

Well, I remember dealing with the reptilians. It was no big deal, really. Their problem was that not only were they only a few inches tall, but due to their chemical composition, not only was water a deadly poison to them, their weapons were based on projecting water at their enemies.

Well, you get a a 10 foot high spaceship landing on the back lawn, that's pretty interesting and unusual, and when several ramps popped down and a hoard of little green lizards came out and started attacking my cat with little water pistols, she was far too dignified to do anything but get up and walk away, and in retrospect, possibly turning the garden hose I was using to fill the bird-bath on them may be considered a bit ill advised, but how was I to know that they would not only all shrivel up and crumble, but that enough water must have entered the spaceship to cause some sort of reaction that made that crumble as well.

I just swept up the remaining bits and pieces, binned them, (I decided neither garden waste nor recycling was appropriate, although I did consider both) and carried on with my day. I have no idea how Neelu found out about this incident, as I only told a few chaps down at the pub, and as usual, they looked at me a bit oddly and changed the subject.
Great to hear that in fact I did repel a planetary invasion, even if it was a catastrophically ill prepared one.

[NYGman]

Being cold blooded animals, would not our reptilian overlords just stop when it got cold outside.

[longdog]

Being cold blooded animals, would not our reptilian overlords just stop when it got cold outside.

Having read six-and-a-half (so far) of the eight "Worldwar" novels by Harry Turtledove I can answer this from a scientific standpoint... No... They just put on thick winter coats.

I think it's pretty much a given that any race capable of mastering interstellar travel has probably also mastered the art of the quilted jacket.

[NYGman]

Hmmm. Not sure if the thick wool coat would be enough. For us warm blooded animals, that generate our own internal heat, a wool coat will serve to trap that heat, and radiate it back. I fear a wool coat on a cold blooded reptile will have the opposite effect. The coat will block the warming sun rays that would heat the cold blooded body, and in effect insulate against the warmth. I recon anything below 40F/4.4C would have a serious impact on them.

[longdog]

Hmmm. Not sure if the thick wool coat would be enough. For us warm blooded animals, that generate our own internal heat, a wool coat will serve to trap that heat, and radiate it back. I fear a wool coat on a cold blooded reptile will have the opposite effect. The coat will block the warming sun rays that would heat the cold blooded body, and in effect insulate against the warmth. I recon anything below 40F/4.4C would have a serious impact on them.

Again I fear you assuming the invading lizard overlords are capable of advanced technological feats like space travel whilst remaining ignorant of such things as electrically heated long-johns and central heating.

I think it's a pretty fair bet the lizards will heat their space cruisers / shuttle craft / emperor's palace to a temperature that suits their needs. Humans survive in the Arctic / Antarctic which are not survivable by naked humans so I'm fairly confident the lizards will be able to adapt or, if they can't, they'll just move on to a world with a more conducive climate.

And the early nominations for Most Pointless Argument of 2018 are...

[He Who Knows]

"Woman Neelu" (as she now prefers to be called these days) has been granted the eminent Snaresbrook Crown Court for her trial on 16th May. What an honour. The largest Crown Court in Britain, it's a historic Grade II listed building set in 18 acres of grounds and its own lake. I do hope she appreciates them rolling out the red carpet for her. Quite fancy popping in myself following an early punt on the lake, or maybe a spot of croquet on the lawn complemented by a picnic of quails eggs and cucumber sandwiches. Enchanting.

[NYGman]

Hmmm. Not sure if the thick wool coat would be enough. For us warm blooded animals, that generate our own internal heat, a wool coat will serve to trap that heat, and radiate it back. I fear a wool coat on a cold blooded reptile will have the opposite effect. The coat will block the warming sun rays that would heat the cold blooded body, and in effect insulate against the warmth. I recon anything below 40F/4.4C would have a serious impact on them.

Again I fear you assuming the invading lizard overlords are capable of advanced technological feats like space travel whilst remaining ignorant of such things as electrically heated long-johns and central heating.

I think it's a pretty fair bet the lizards will heat their space cruisers / shuttle craft / emperor's palace to a temperature that suits their needs. Humans survive in the Arctic / Antarctic which are not survivable by naked humans so I'm fairly confident the lizards will be able to adapt or, if they can't, they'll just move on to a world with a more conducive climate.

And the early nominations for Most Pointless Argument of 2018 are...

While they may be advanced enough for space flight, isn't it always the little things that trip them up. I would think they would hibernate while traveling through the cold depth of space, only coming around when in close proximity to a star, that can warm their craft sufficiently. Being reliant on heat sources, I would propose they derive their power from light/heat. Therefore, it is quite possible that while they may be quite adept at keeping warm at home,there may be issues with our power sources. Even if they could deal with the Voltage issues we have here, and our AC or DC power, I think their ultimate downfall is not have the right plug or adapter with them.

[ArthurWankspittle]

Even if they could deal with the Voltage issues we have here, and our AC or DC power, I think their ultimate downfall is not have the right plug or adapter with them.

Or plugging in their 110v AC adaptor only to find out it is 230v AC.

[longdog]

You fools!!!

Clearly the lizards will be using nano-quantum batteries, pocket fusion reactors and free energy devices they've seen on YouTube during their voyage. Your underestimation of the invading hoards is putting humanity in great peril!!!!!11!!!ONE!!!!!1!!

[Siegfried Shrink]

The high energy density lithium ion battery was introduced into Earth technology specifically so there would be plenty available to power those heated undies. I can see no other explanation.
There must be many other new devices that seem commonplace now but are really hard for humans to actually use. Eentsy keypads that need tiny reptile claws to operate comfortably, phones with tiny screens that suit only non-human eyes. Lady Gaga's meat dress (nice one , aliens), incomprehensible 'reality' programs on TV that are dull or just plain daft for humans but a laugh a second joke riot for any alien species, just look around, the list goes on.

What about Twitter. As a human it has always seemed totally pointless to me because just about every trivial thing people say is really not worth sharing, except by aliens.

Think about it! Everything wierd, useless and unexplainedly popular is an alien artefact.