LH'rs are pathetic

[ASITStands]

James A. ("Einstein") Bussey has posted a copy of the refund check:

http://www.losthorizons.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1502

--along with a copy of an IRS notice, with a tracking number that can presumably be used by IRS personnel to help them locate him. Last four digits of his SSN have been whited out, but I suspect that won't slow the tax man down very much.

Nothing like committing fraud and then leaving a trail for the investigator! Good job, Einstein!

Ain't it amazing how utterly ignorant people are when revealing personal information?

Of course, these people believe they're right, and therefore, unassailable. What a surprise may be in store for James A. Bussey! There's one residing in Albertville, AL 35951.

My apologies to the James Bussey in Albertville if it's mistaken identity.

[ASITStands]

IRS CID is probably even more amazed. When they get done laughing, they might want to consider how they might tighten up the 4852 red-flagging system so clowns like this never have an opportunity to mouth off about idiocy which might suck more morons into the CtC vortex.

I certainly agree. I wonder why ANY return with Form 4852 attached is not flagged for review before processing is complete, refund request, zero income, or not.

Is that being too logical? Or, am I forgetting some fundamental right of taxpayers?

[jkeeb]

1) A 941c would not have a 4852 attached.

2) The IRS relies on underreporter to catch most of these issues. The problem is that underreporter runs on a year specific program catching timely filed and near timely delinquent returns. No separate run is completed for returns processed after say March of the following year.

Of course, by not flagging 4852's, these returns result in refunds (unless someone flags as frivolous) and then getting the money back is expensive. But as can be seen by the refunds posted on Lost Heads, you cannot count on GS-4's that don't care and have too little time to even notice obviously frivolous returns.

Finally, 4852's have a legitimate purpose, that of getting the refunds that are legal to people who cannot get their W-2's. Generally, these are employers that are no longer in business and no W-2's were sent out. Again, the catch on abuse is underreporter the next year.

[.]

that would mean picking out those who are registered with taxes withheld, but still claim 0 income?

No one in the U.S. is "registered" as anything. Employees fill out form W-4 to inform their employer of their withholding status, but information from that form, with rare exceptions (attempted abuse) isn't provided to the government.

Form 4852 is generally used by people whose employer didn't provide them with a W-2 wage and tax (withheld) statement for whatever reason (usually because the employer is out of business.)

Then there's the CtC knuckleheads who think that filing a false 4852 (a federal felony) changes reality.

EVERY 4852 should raise a red flag. There aren't that many of them, maybe 1 in 1,000. Out of 120+ million returns, 4852s are probably involved in less than 100,000 of them, probably way less, but I'm guessing. I guess because when a company goes into bankruptcy, the trustee usually makes sure that paperwork like W-2s gets cranked out. It's mostly small companies going out of business that never get anywhere near any court that causes the need for a 4852.

Most 4852s are legitimate and are easily verifiable as such. Anything else is a crack-head or other frivolous return.

The only question is how the IRS gets their systems geared up to catch all of the outliers. Or, perhaps better put, outright liars. Seems to me that it shouldn't be as difficult as it seems to be.

[.]

No separate run is completed for returns processed after say March of the following year.

There's an idea. A fair number of these CtC morons seem to be late, sometimes very late filers. Which would seem to raise its own red flag, but apparently doesn't. Computer time is cheap (even if they do run on vacuum tubes.) Certainly cheaper than handing out fraudulent and embarrassing refunds to moronic crack-heads.

[Red Cedar PM]

It would seem fairly easy to all but eliminate this scam by flagging and blocking refunds of returns that have a 4582 from the taxpayer and a W-2 from the employer already on file, if the 4582 is only to be used in the absence of a W-2. Am I missing something, and if not, why hasn't anyone smarter than I figured that out yet?

[jkeeb]

The information isn't available until later in the year. Income information for the current year starts showing up in July of the filing year. The information can't be trusted as complete until around September.

[webhick]

It would seem fairly easy to all but eliminate this scam by flagging and blocking refunds of returns that have a 4582 from the taxpayer and a W-2 from the employer already on file, if the 4582 is only to be used in the absence of a W-2. Am I missing something, and if not, why hasn't anyone smarter than I figured that out yet?

They should only flag 4852s that have $0 wages, but taxes withheld so it doesn't hold up any legitimate 4852s.

[Red Cedar PM]

The information isn't available until later in the year. Income information for the current year starts showing up in July of the filing year. The information can't be trusted as complete until around September.

Okay, I can understand that. I think the form can be modified though to hopefully weed some of the cheaters out. I think the first part should be expanded to ask whether the employee is filing the Form 4852 because the W-2 they received is either incorrect or that they never received a W-2. If they state that the W-2 they received is incorrect, they should have to attach the original W-2 and state why it is incorrect - anything answered this way should be flagged for review. If they state that they never received a W-2, then at least that can be used against them later if it ends up they were lying on the form and signed it under penalty of perjury. I would think this would at least stop some of the cheating.

[Red Cedar PM]

It would seem fairly easy to all but eliminate this scam by flagging and blocking refunds of returns that have a 4582 from the taxpayer and a W-2 from the employer already on file, if the 4582 is only to be used in the absence of a W-2. Am I missing something, and if not, why hasn't anyone smarter than I figured that out yet?

They should only flag 4852s that have $0 wages, but taxes withheld so it doesn't hold up any legitimate 4852s.

It would seem that they could just enter in a nominal amount then, like $100, and still end up having $0 tax and getting a full refund.

[webhick]

It would seem fairly easy to all but eliminate this scam by flagging and blocking refunds of returns that have a 4582 from the taxpayer and a W-2 from the employer already on file, if the 4582 is only to be used in the absence of a W-2. Am I missing something, and if not, why hasn't anyone smarter than I figured that out yet?

They should only flag 4852s that have $0 wages, but taxes withheld so it doesn't hold up any legitimate 4852s.

It would seem that they could just enter in a nominal amount then, like $100, and still end up having $0 tax and getting a full refund.

But then they would have either admitted to being an employee with taxable wages, or they are committing perjury since they are trying to operate under assumption that they do not have taxable wages.

if wages <= social security + medicare + federal withholding, BIG RED FLAG.

[LPC]

They should only flag 4852s that have $0 wages, but taxes withheld so it doesn't hold up any legitimate 4852s.

It would seem that they could just enter in a nominal amount then, like $100, and still end up having $0 tax and getting a full refund.

But then they would have either admitted to being an employee with taxable wages, or they are committing perjury since they are trying to operate under assumption that they do not have taxable wages.

if wages <= social security + medicare + federal withholding, BIG RED FLAG.

Normally, FICA withholding (i.e., Social Security) should be 6.2% of wages, and Medicare should be 1.45% of wages, so if a Form 4852 reports that FICA plus Medicare is more than 7.65% of the wages reported, then big red flags should go up and no refund should be issued until a human being has reviewed and resolved those red flags.

[webhick]

Normally, FICA withholding (i.e., Social Security) should be 6.2% of wages, and Medicare should be 1.45% of wages, so if a Form 4852 reports that FICA plus Medicare is more than 7.65% of the wages reported, then big red flags should go up and no refund should be issued until a human being has reviewed and resolved those red flags.

Excellent point.

[Dezcad]

Normally, FICA withholding (i.e., Social Security) should be 6.2% of wages, and Medicare should be 1.45% of wages, so if a Form 4852 reports that FICA plus Medicare is more than 7.65% of the wages reported, then big red flags should go up and no refund should be issued until a human being has reviewed and resolved those red flags.

You also need to take into account the FICA wage cap, now at $106,800. If you earn more than that the 7.65% won't be accurate.

If (w<106,800, w*.062, 106,800*0.62) + (w*.0145) does not equal actual FICA and Medicare then a review should be done. That would be a suitable formula, IMHO.

[Tax Protester]

Yes, isn’t just exceptionally amazing that even with the advent of digital technology and the sophistication of current computer software, image and document letter scanning and conversion algorithms, multitasking processors, high speed intranet, and highly complex and cross checking databases, and mainframe servers, all combined with a near endless budget, the IRS cannot even bother to fashion together a simple routine within their own processing modules that automatically flags and reroutes all returns which claim a refund that is say larger than, equal to, or within a given percentage [e.g. 95% or greater than] of the amounts reportedly withheld by each individual, or that include specific forms along with their filing, or something to the above effect.

Nope, those silly things, coupled with those several low-level IRS "employees", whom still have not grasped the concept (even after all of their training and schooling) that all 'taxpayers' are due back an amount that which has been determined by a simplistic static equation and no more, that there are no exceptions, just keep on slipping through. Those darned 'tax protesters', be damned!

Nope instead they choose to leave it as a virtually random pick and choose process (entirely ineffective mind you), yet a process which itself is guess what… (partially) automated! Even more funny is that the IRS decries publicly this issue to be such a monstrous burden that they keep pumping out that which are ultimately silly and futile publications, such as the Dirty Dozen, year after year… as if their poor “employees” do not have enough to worry about already, right!

So in response what does Congress go and do? They stepped in and revamped the penalty 6702 section… rather than addressing the core of the problem itself, or offering some combination thereof. In the process they have virtually ended (CDPH) offers in compromise, who is going to file there and face the threat of a fine if the court or IRS does not like their tact, that would just be a bonehead move by anybody, (especially given to the IRS’ assumed or self-prescribed latitude).

Got a leaky roof on your home? Forget about hiring a roofer to repair it, instead higher an excavator and dump truck to pull it off and haul it away, then just forget about! Really, who needs a roof anyways? Or hell for some extra fun just hire Congress to slather a thick coat of hot tar all over it.

I mean after all, 60-million ‘taxpayers’ cannot be wrong… now can they? But let us not fool ourselves, they are most likely the same folks that cannot tell which country borders our Northern states.

[Dezcad]

Nope, those silly things, coupled with those several low-level IRS "employees", whom still have not grasped the concept.

(bolding added

This reminds me of how Weston White writes, is that you Weston?

[LPC]

Yes, isn’t just exceptionally amazing that even with the advent of digital technology and the sophistication of current computer software, image and document letter scanning and conversion algorithms, multitasking processors, high speed intranet, and highly complex and cross checking databases, and mainframe servers, all combined with a near endless budget, the IRS cannot even bother to fashion together a simple routine within their own processing modules that automatically flags and reroutes all returns which claim a refund that is say larger than, equal to, or within a given percentage [e.g. 95% or greater than] of the amounts reportedly withheld by each individual, or that include specific forms along with their filing, or something to the above effect.

So when one of Hendrickson's dupes files a fraudulent return claiming $0 income, and the IRS issues a refund, it's the fault of the IRS for not identifying the fraud, and not the fault of the filer for signing a false return?

That's like saying that if someone leaves their keys in the car, and the car is stolen, it's the owner's fault and the thief should not be punished.

"Tax Protester" is simply trying to perpetuate the idea that the refund checks are not mistakes, but some kind of proof of something. So any refund checks issued as the result of mistakes by low-level clerks are hailed as "victories" of the "rule of law," while conscious, deliberate decisions by judges are dismissed as "meaningless" or simply ignored without explanation.

[Tax Protester]

This reminds me of how Weston White writes, is that you Weston?

No, that is the correct usage of the word, perhaps your a tad bit confused. You probably already knew that though, right?

One of its uses is for posing questions, mainly, though that is not its only use.

[Tax Protester]

So when one of Hendrickson's dupes files a fraudulent return claiming $0 income, and the IRS issues a refund, it's the fault of the IRS for not identifying the fraud, and not the fault of the filer for signing a false return?

That's like saying that if someone leaves their keys in the car, and the car is stolen, it's the owner's fault and the thief should not be punished.

"Tax Protester" is simply trying to perpetuate the idea that the refund checks are not mistakes, but some kind of proof of something. So any refund checks issued as the result of mistakes by low-level clerks are hailed as "victories" of the "rule of law," while conscious, deliberate decisions by judges are dismissed as "meaningless" or simply ignored without explanation.

Ones remuneration is not 'income' by default or implication. No matter how many times you make a demand for it to be so.

It is not fraudulent when one has in fact not realized any income, earned or otherwise. The IRS is not able or willing to provide assessments to the CtC enlightened... because they can't, they have not authority to. Though I suppose you will just rack it up as a they do not have to show you anything, it does not matter, etc., etc. Just keep in mind that if you do say such a thing you are flat out wrong.

Nope everyone of those returns were reviewed by an IRS employee, they do not just slip through the cracks. Machines to not make frivolous declarations all on their own (at least not until the data has been entered into the computer), nor machines do receive paper returns in the post office, enter the data, mark, sign, stamp, and date entries in logs, and issue Treasury checks all on their own, you do know that, right?

And lest we forget, Section 93 of the 1862 Revenue Act, as related now to IRC Section 6020:

"Provided, that any party, in his or her own behalf, or as guardian or trustee, as aforesaid, shall be permitted to declare, under oath or affirmation, the form and manner of which shall be prescribed by the Commissioner of Internal Revenue, that he or she was not possessed of an income of six hundred dollars, liable to be assessed according to the provisions of this act, or that he or she has been assessed elsewhere and the same year for an income duty, under authority of the United States, and shall thereupon be exempt from an income duty; or, if the list or return of any party shall have been increased by the assistant assessor, in manner as aforesaid, he or she may be permitted to declare, as aforesaid, the amount of his or her annual income, or the amount held in trust, as aforesaid, liable to be assessed, as aforesaid, and the same so declared shall be received as the sum upon which duties are to be assessed and collected."

As I said before blaming low-level "employees" for CtC's many successes is not only a weak argument, it is just lame and desperate. I understand though, that is all you have to cling onto, for your ladder is short and the rungs on it are very fragile and the house on which it leans is certifiably condemned.

Not that it really matters, but all of the lower court and tax court cases you folks cite all use that magic language, none of them use plain English. You have to honestly wonder why that is, if not you are simply fooling yourselves.

[Tax Protester]

There is one thing that NO tax denier, or tax thief has ever been able to answer. If all of these <ahem> "methods" being espoused are so wonderful, why is it that people in the upper middle class and upper class never use them, but the poor, ignorant, dim and slow witted members of the lower class glom onto these <ahem> "theories" like a drunk reaching for a shot of rotgut?

Yes they have, many of times, you just refuse to listen because you do not like the answer, which is entirely obvious and you should be smart enough to know without asking.

(1) Yes rich people have joined the Tax Honesty/Patriot Movements, there are many, you know that there are, stop pretending there are not. Not as many in ratio to middle and lower class, but that is the ratio of rich to poor anyways, less rich and more poor.
(2) Why would rich people really care about it when they are advised of the risks they will have to face, in consideration of to the existing status quo mentality. Rich people care about public status, public image, they would not risk doing something that would be frowned upon or unpopular with the “in crowd” they are apart of.
(3) There are rich people that have even funded or bank roll factions of the Tax Honesty and Patriot Movements.
(4) The fact is most rich people are not even aware of the Tax Honesty and Patriot Movements, other than what they hear on the news, which would only lend to further scaring them.
(5) Rich people have more money than they can spend and hire professions to deal with such issues. Rich people figure they pay very good money for CPA’ and attorney’s to get them the best return on their money or verdict in court.
(6) What do you think, being rich makes you smart or enables you to gain instant knowledge about tax laws or inherited clairvoyance?
(7) Most rich people are involved in legally taxable activities anyways, they invest their money to earn profit and gains, rather then just sitting on a stack of cash earning jack squat.
(8) Most rich people do not give a concern or care or have any interest in justice, why do that when you have so much money to just play when not working, so many places to see, nice jewelry to show office, vacations to take, homes to furnish, golf courses to drive through, etc., etc. For if they did, most rich people would not be rich to begin with.
(9) Let us not forget that most of our Nations government do not even pay their taxes, as it has come to light recently, they only pay once they get caught, problem solved, no big deal… for them at least.

The next thing no tax thief has ever been to get through their thick, ossified brain is that even if these <ahem, cough> "loopholes" existed, how long would it take the IRS, or Congress to close the alleged loopholes? A year or two?

No wrong, it would have been proper for you to state that what you folks do not “get” is that they are not “loopholes”, they have been prescribed for within the IRC since its initial inception. Through time Sections have been changed around, context omitted, etc., all in an effort to hid the truth from a dumbed down and complicit populous. The IRC is an Indirect Tax, that means there has to be ways to avoid being subject to it (and no not earning a living is not meant as a way), otherwise the IRC would be unconstitutional as it would violate the Constitution many tax related enumerations.

No, tax deniers are nothing more than grubby, dirty little children who reach and grasp for everything and demand that only their way of doing things is right and who throw a loud, noisy, temper tantrum when they do not get their way.

No that description is more fitting for the thousands upon thousands of overpriced bottom feeders that take advantage of others in the “Tax Profession”… that is especially the case for the folks that have been made aware of the truth, though have instead chosen to make every effort to blockade it, such as those on this forum and "employees" of the IRS.

We have no problems paying taxes, we pay taxes each day, each month, and with each purchase, we pay local, state, and federal taxes… We pay taxes for our gas, when we smog and register or vehicles, when we pay our telephone, cable, internet, electric and gas bills, etc., when we purchase food and clothing from the store, we pay property taxes, we pay taxes on our guns and ammo, the list goes on and on and on, therein lies the problem. We are being taxed literally to death. So that begs the question, why? What is point? What is the purpose? A carefully planned agenda is obviously being played out. Enter the globalist agenda... "a big idea".

All we want is for the Constitution to be followed, the Legislature has disconcerted their enumerated powers, they discount them with each new resolution. From our illegal fiat currency, to freedom of the press, to gun rights, to a global military, dysfunctional public schooling, to taxation, and back again.

If they want to tax the population’s earnings, then implement a Direct Tax in accordance with the U.S. Constitution. Heck even keep the IRC as is, just stop trying to enforce it incorrectly as they currently are. It is really that simple. I mean think about this, if Congress did that, then none of us “tax thieves” would have nothing at all to complain about anymore, I mean could you imagine? It would be just wonderful, it really, truly would.

More to the point, one cannot steal that which already belonged to them to being with. Meaning that our money was withheld throughout the year, we just want back that which is due to us. We are not asking for more, nor do we expect any less. As well we do not want to participate in social programs of non-guaranteed and undetermined benefits, we would much rather invest our money how we see fit. It is our lives damn it! Let us live them how we choose to, let us enjoy our lives to the best of our own capabilities, rather than holding us down in the undertow of social burden.

I guarantee you that we would all get many times more back than what we put in, when compared to any government operated/ran program.